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Thread: Adios amigos

  1. #1
    Champion
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    Default Adios amigos

    The following is my personal opinion and will definitely not reflect the views and opinions of each and every addon author.

    Since the very beginning of Rift I have been very supportive of this game. For the first couple of months I was doing an extensive German blog about the rogue class. As soon as the addon API was being made available I started doing addons for Rift. The first project called nkRogue was aiming at giving the Rogue class some better tools. This project eventually was transformed into the addon you all know as nkRebuff.

    For about a year I have poured endless hours into developping the wide range of nkAddons. There are a few fellow addon authors who built similar complex addons like the nkRange. Probably only they can really understand the amount of time I put into this whole addon business. To give you a rough understanding: Most of my two week sommer vacation went into nkThings.

    I did this for using them myself, for the community and to make Rift a better game to hopefully get more players into it. The positive feedback of the community was what I got out of it. Also I got some small donations totalling to about US$300 including the Curse benefit programm, which I am thankfull for.

    My opinion is that game companies like Trion get a loot of volunteer work from the addon authors. We addon authors make the game a better game. There are a lot of players out there who tend to rather play a game if it has a strong and good addon support. On the other side Trion never ever gaves us addon authors anything but more work. We do not get any free gaming time, we do not get any fluffy ingame things like titles in the last twelf months I have not even got a simple 'thank you for doing this' from Trion. In the end Trion makes money with the game and they outsource fleshing out the UI through addons to addon authors. No matter what work Trion puts into the API in the end they save money by going this way. Simple fact.

    They give away free months of gametime for small things like a retweet, they give away ingame titles for riddles posted in the forums. But they do not give anything to addon authors. Sometimes I get a feeling that they even think we should be gratefull for being able to do addons. Bollocks!

    I was never really happy with the way the API was growing nor with the priorities nor with the lack of communication about what's next on the plan of expanding the API. I'm the first to admit that I'm not a big fan of the API itself as I had to write way too many workarounds because of lacking functionality or missing or incorecct concepts. The fact that me (and some other addon authors) had to write a full UI lib to be able to build a modern and functional user interface speaks for itself. Oh and now exactely these needed concepts are regarded as being too slow. Yeah right.

    Sometimes we addon authors really need to go to extremes like for example the nkAdvisor Loottables were all manually compiled as Trion does not publish any structured information about loot tables or for example any raid related addon like unit frames or KBM needs to be tested in a raid environment. Imagine progress encounters will one of your fellow raiders hunts down bugs in his addon ...

    Now finally after a year with a lot of work, after a year were sometimes this addon business felt like a second job with no pay, Trion comes and slaps us addon authors into the face by introducing the Watchdog. And don't you dare to state that we had a month to test it on the PTs. With the amount of time we already spent on the addons only few go on the PTs and starts extensive test runs there. Oh and some mods (read raid related) cannot be tested ... cause you'd obviously need a raid on PTS.

    For the last week I have raised my concerns and complains about the watchdog. All we got is "you'll have to live with it". At the same time I get mails reading "You addon sucks cause Trion tells me so ingame". There are already other threads regarding this issue so I'll leave the details there. Anyway long story made short: Instead of taking the slap into the face and asking for another one I decided to kick back and leave this addon business.

    Trion is a commercially oriented company aiming at or making profit. Part of their strategie is to use the free of charge workpower of addon authors to improve their product. Considering this we all deserve some better treatment.

    Raising concerns or complaining didn't work, so I have to draw a line. I have invested way too much time to continue like this. I'm proud about my work and Trion hit were it hurts me most. Feels almost as bad as when the Runes Of Magic company went and introduced a ripoff of my crafting addon stealing all my concepts and ideas.

    All of my addons have been deleted from Curse and RiftUI. The top 30 download chart over at Curse looks quite differently now. Who has a copy installed on his machine can still use it. They will most probably break with Rift Patch 1.10 due to upcoming API changes. However I will not allow any fan updates or continuance of my addons in any form. They are and will be dead.. I'm done with Trion's addon stuff.

    Cheers
    N.
    Last edited by Naifu; 07-03-2012 at 12:26 AM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    Well I'm sorry to see you go.

    I completely understand the pain right now with Watchdog, though I do feel that you are very much over reacting.

    It's especially sad considering that we have already been told that the way Watchdog works is going to be reworked be be per Event Call instead of per Event Handler.

    Also to say that there is a lack of communication from trion on the API is horribly wrong, if anything Zorba is the best dev for communication with the community and through multiple different means.

    To say you weren't happy with how the API was developing is perfectly valid, but to complain about lack of functionality in an API that only just left beta and is still a long ways from being fully implemented is ridicules.

    As to your not wanting your addons to be continued in anyway I am extremely disappointed. I completely understand the amount of time you have invested in these addons, but to rage quit and just say a big F U at everyone that uses your addons is appalling. I know for myself I plan on continuing developing and updating those addons I use and I know at least my guild will reap the benefits of this.

    So like I said before, sorry to see you go, but frankly I am glad to see the horrible attitude leave.

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    Naifu,

    First off, please accept my sincere thanks for all the hard work you’ve put into your range of addons through the life of the Rift API. Your original nkRogue was all that made playing my Rogue and tracking all those different self-buffs bearable. You’ve also been very attentive with my various (often incorrect) bug reports. All in all, you’ve been a huge credit to the Rift community, and like you say in your post, this game was far better off because of the countless hours you invested in your addons.

    All that having been said, what you’ve done in the past 24 hours, combined with this post, strikes me as very childish and immature. Your post reeks of self-entitlement and an inflated sense of self-worth. Yes, you put in a LOT of time working on your range of nk addons – I’m sure much more than I can even imagine. And yes, you’ve received few benefits for this – no in-game rewards, a very small amount of money from supporters, and what I’m sure is a constant flow of people like me complaining that stuff is broken and asking you to fix it.

    This is a thankless job, to be sure. But I know that Trion isn’t unique in how they treat developers; actually, they’ve generally been much more helpful and attentive towards devs than “that other MMO.” I remember when Blizzard forced addons to remove donation links from in-game, and they’ve blatantly stolen many addon ideas for their own base UI (PowerAuras would be a great example, but there are many others). Bloggers in the WoW community routinely get in-game items named after them, but I’ve never seen any “shout out” for the developers.

    Nevertheless, there’s no doubt that writing addons for Rift (or any other MMO) is neither easy nor rewarding in any “traditional” sense. I suspect you used to garner a great deal of pride from the popularity of your addon suite, which may have been payment enough before, but I guess that’s no longer the case. Watchdog may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back for you, but I would imagine this has been a long time coming; and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with deciding this sort of work isn’t for you anymore. I’ve been doing this for one millionth the time you have, and I really can’t even fathom how you’ve been able to do this so long. So I would never hold it against you for deciding that you’ve had enough and want to stop developing Rift addons.

    What I do feel is rather petulant is that you’ve decided to “take your ball and go home” by deleting your addons from the online repositories and deciding that no one can work to update your (very popular) works. What is the point of this? To show people how much they’ll miss you and your work? Yes, we will all miss your development on the nk addons, but deciding that, because Trion have “gone too far” and besmirched your reputation, you will turn your back on the many users you’ve accumulated is a sad exit for someone who’s meant so much to this community.

    I truly wish you the very best moving forward, with whatever you choose to do. You’re clearly a gifted developer, and hopefully other games in the future benefit from your expertise. I do hope, though, that the next time you’ve decided you’ve had enough, you realize that punishing your users by yanking both support and access to addons they’ve come to grow and love is the wrong way to leave the game.

    Best wishes,
    Toludin

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    Sorry to have to read such a sad post but I fully support your point of view.

    I'm daily using nkRebuff and I'll miss it !

    Trion please support Addon devs, reward them for the huge amount of time the spent to make your game better. The whole community is using add-ons and it really improves the pleasure we have playing Rift.

    Such a post should be a Real RED FLAG in your add-on politic.

    If all add-on devs would do as Naifu it would have a large impact on the game itself !

    BIG THANK YOU NAIFU for you work for the Community ! It's very well appreciated !!

  5. #5
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    very sad news indeed. Naifus Addons came out to be prbly the most useful and most used addons for Rift at all.

    I never thought of how punishing it must be for an addon developer to see all those giveaways when there never was something done for the addon-devs.

    Im sure this was a plain oversight of Trion, i dont think they deliberatly chose "nah those addon guys dont need anything" or something.

    I didnt understand those watchdog comment, what does it do?

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daizzyra View Post
    Sorry to have to read such a sad post but I fully support your point of view.

    I'm daily using nkRebuff and I'll miss it !

    Trion please support Addon devs, reward them for the huge amount of time the spent to make your game better. The whole community is using add-ons and it really improves the pleasure we have playing Rift.

    Such a post should be a Real RED FLAG in your add-on politic.

    If all add-on devs would do as Naifu it would have a large impact on the game itself !

    BIG THANK YOU NAIFU for you work for the Community ! It's very well appreciated !!
    The thing is, even though all of us Addon Devs are dealing with the same issue with watchdog, the vast majority have used the different communication channels we have available (yes we have more than just this forum) to convey our issues and communicate directly with the Single Trion Dev that has built and continues to build the Addon API.

    What Naifu has done here is simply a childish overreaction to a situation that is not entirely uncommon in program development (that of trial and error).

    I think that had Naifu utilized our more direct form of communication with Zorba he would not be taking the actions he is, and not just because his major problem with watchdog as already been addressed and is simply awaiting implementation.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigonos View Post
    very sad news indeed. Naifus Addons came out to be prbly the most useful and most used addons for Rift at all.

    I never thought of how punishing it must be for an addon developer to see all those giveaways when there never was something done for the addon-devs.

    Im sure this was a plain oversight of Trion, i dont think they deliberatly chose "nah those addon guys dont need anything" or something.

    I didnt understand those watchdog comment, what does it do?

    Actually I personally, as well as other authors, have talked with the Addon API Dev about rewards for addon authors, and we were met with similar thoughts on Zorbas side.

    I would not be surprised if Trion was already working on some way to saying "Thank you" to all of the Addon Authors that participated in the beta phase of the Addon API (In fact this may have been hinted at ;) )

  8. #8
    Sword of Telara DoomSprout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigonos View Post
    I didnt understand those watchdog comment, what does it do?
    The watchdog is a feature added in 1.9 designed to alert people to problems where addons are slowing RIFT down. I'm sure you've seen the end result - the Performance Warning error dialog popping up on your screen.

    When you look at the vast suite of addons Naifu has created, the thought of revisiting every one to make it "Watchdog Compliant" must be truly overwhelming, so I can understand the frustration on Naifu's part. Making an addon work with the watchdog is extremely difficult, as it's hard to nail down where the problems are, recreate them, or even fix them in a reliable way as there are so many factors that can effect how long a piece of code takes to run.

    I do think this is a very sad way for someone as well respected as Naifu to leave, and I sincerely hope that given time he may reconsider this decision and bring his dedication and expertise back to the RIFT community. If this doesn't happen, then all the best Naifu, and good luck in whatever you turn your hand to next.

    - Wildtide

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  9. #9
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    ok i see the problem, why isnt there a watchdog developer tool, where the tool tells the developer which part of the code is producing the error?

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer Noshei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigonos View Post
    ok i see the problem, why isnt there a watchdog developer tool, where the tool tells the developer which part of the code is producing the error?
    The warning errors do point you in the general direction of the issue, but it's can be very difficult to find the exact problem due to the vast amount of moving parts in an addon. This is also compounded by how the watchdog currently operates, witch is best explained here by he developer of KBM. Though it is important to note that Zorba (the Addon API Dev) has already said that the way the watchdog works is going to be changed.

  11. #11
    Sword of Telara DoomSprout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigonos View Post
    ok i see the problem, why isnt there a watchdog developer tool, where the tool tells the developer which part of the code is producing the error?
    Oh, we get an emailed error report telling us some of the errors that have happened the previous day, that's not a problem.

    What it can't tell us is *why* it happened. I sometimes look at mine and think "eh? why on earth did *that* bit of code take so long to run?!". Maybe the player was in Conquest with 500 other people, or maybe they were multi-boxing with 15 copies of RIFT running at 1 FPS, or, just possibly, my code is garbage and needs fixing

    Anyway, the point is, it's certainly not trivial to resolve these issues, and when you apply that to a suite as large and complex as Naifu's, the work required must stretch into days and days of effort. So while I don't agree with the tone of Naifu's message, and I have a lot of respect for the Trion guys who are enabling addons in the first place, I do understand the considerable frustration.

    Gadgets: Unit Frames and Other Stuff for RIFT

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser NerfedWar's Avatar
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    Default good luck N.

    N, just wanted to say thank you for all your hard work, your code has been a useful source I've turned to on more than one occasions to work out how to do something.

    Sorry to hear you are leaving, especially under such circumstances. Best of luck in your new endeavor.

    With regards some sort of recognition for addon authors, I agree that some sort of in-game & forum title would be nice for authors who write addons (and update them regularly keeping them bug/watchdog free, something I'm particularly poor at doing!).
    Last edited by NerfedWar; 07-03-2012 at 03:19 AM.
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  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Thorarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NerfedWar View Post
    With regards some sort of recognition for addon authors, I agree that some sort of in-game & forum title would be nice for authors who write addons (and update them regularly keeping them bug/watchdog free, something I'm particularly poor at doing!).
    *cough* update Luapad already, you slacker

    Despite my really missing this addon during development, I've still not gotten around to completely fixing it myself... or I would have submitted an update

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    Sorry to see you go.

    I know that the watchdog has been a painful change, particularly around the UI front (as rift is slow at building UI objects)

    Even my simple healing frames get bitten by the slowness creating UI objects, and I know the nk UI library was complex, but it needed to be for some of the nice controls it had (I thought about using them)

    For my one addon, I've been thinking how to avoid the performance warning when I bring up the config UI, all I can think to do is become more on-demand based for loading tabs, or some kind of background load of the UI...

    When you've a whole UI framework based on something that Watchdog barks at because it's trying to make some nice UI pieces, I can see the frustration. Dealing with a complete rework/write of the library and the addons, and the end users telling you your addon has suddenly become rubbish, that's one way to make a hobby far less fun.

    I can't help but wonder if more time to get used to the watchdog before everyone has it enabled would have been better, so addon devs (and keen players) could enable it and find issues. I knew that it was coming but didn't have the time to look into it on the PTS.

    I also have to agree that sometimes there's a lack of information for upcoming items, we put requests up on a forum post and they do feel like they disappear into a black hole.

    Good luck with wherever you end up.

    Mere

  15. #15
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    Hate to see you go N. Thanks for all the work you did for us.

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