Regarding Defiants and Davek..

[Drewpapa]

I'm very honored you took the time to screen cap those pivotal points that were all OOC.

However you've left out the fact that I asked nicely before hand for suggestions on how to handle that particular situation ICly. Now, I don't go around screen capping.. I'm not the TMZ of Rift, so of course I can't prove that I was asking nicely before hand on how to deal with that. In my opinion that situation was handled with extreme use of metagaming. Now you've turned this thread from the Davek debate, to something that has already happened. That lets me know I've rustled not only your jimmies, but the jimmies of all of the other MMORPG's in your guild.

I do thank you though, clearly I'm the Dennis Rodman of Rift. Always getting that publicity.

[Annalea]

I'm very honored you took the time to screen cap those pivotal points that were all OOC.

However you've left out the fact that I asked nicely before hand for suggestions on how to handle that particular situation ICly. Now, I don't go around screen capping.. I'm not the TMZ of Rift, so of course I can't prove that I was asking nicely before hand on how to deal with that. In my opinion that situation was handled with extreme use of metagaming. Now you've turned this thread from the Davek debate, to something that has already happened. That lets me know I've rustled not only your jimmies, but the jimmies of all of the other MMORPG's in your guild.

I do thank you though, clearly I'm the Dennis Rodman of Rift. Always getting that publicity.

That's certainly one way to look at it! But I'm very conscientious about what gets said about my guild. As such, I will defend it and my members at any chance, if people are going to take to lying about us in a public way.

[Inixia]

Hey, just wanted to chime in and say first of all, yes, the section I wrote for Davek was totally fabricated, I didn't intend to pass it off as real lore (being fairly easy to show otherwise), or mean to try to get into a whole debate on his intentions. I had hoped the lore was a fun way to tie in some of his real plot elements and some of the ones questioned... The point being that you can be imaginative (within some lore confines) when it comes to these things. A lot of the NPCs are for the most part unwritten, and who would have thought someone as insignificant as Davek Anders would be the topic of this much heated inquiry? I think its kind of entertaining!

Edit: On a side note, and one which was questioned previously, is it really that unlikely that certain npcs might behave welcoming to cross faction races in the Argent Glade area? Sure faction tensions are high, especially in this zone, which is why any defiants coming to this area should be on edge. However, if you think about it the guardian/defiant rift only really came to be less than two years ago, and we at least have evidence in lore that Quicksilver College was previously welcoming to many, Asha Catari studying there at one point, and Orphiel even in a teaching position. The guardian opposition to defiants is an important atmosphere to create imo, but not all NPCs need to fit that stereotype. I refuse to believe the sides are that defined, even in Freemarch, the early missions show the locals to be extremely hesitant of the newly formed Defiants, for example. And in Argent Glade, I imagine at least a few of the residents would not rush into such generalizations of ppl (maybe even some they know) based on the actions of a few more notable defiants (and if there were some alternate views in the residents is it likely they all moved away from their established homes in Argent Glade?). It IS important to uphold the general tensions associated with a defiant coming into what is basically a Guardian occupied area... however I do think you can allow some diversity in NPC beliefs while doing it, with restraint on how open/cautious they are about it.

[Drewpapa]

Annalea, I'm not really lying about your guild at all. I made a comment saying you and a few others in your guild were more relaxed, free form RPers. Please, give me an example about how I've lied about your guild.

[Annalea]

Hey, just wanted to chime in and say first of all, yes, the section I wrote for Davek was totally fabricated, I didn't intend to pass it off as real lore (being fairly easy to show otherwise), or mean to try to get into a whole debate on his intentions. I had hoped the lore was a fun way to tie in some of his real plot elements and some of the ones questioned... The point being that you can be imaginative (within some lore confines) when it comes to these things. A lot of the NPCs are for the most part unwritten, and who would have thought someone as insignificant as Davek Anders would be the topic of this much heated inquiry? I think its kind of entertaining!

I thought it was good fun, at least! The point being that he's very much an unwritten and unknowable character. Personally, I think it'd be fun to have an actual barkeep run the place -- I had a blast doing so in Star Trek Online!

Edit: On a side note, and one which was questioned previously, is it really that unlikely that certain npcs might behave welcoming to cross faction races in the Argent Glade area? Sure faction tensions are high, especially in this zone, which is why any defiants coming to this area should be on edge. However, if you think about it the guardian/defiant rift only really came to be less than two years ago, and we at least have evidence in lore that Quicksilver College was previously welcoming to many, Asha Catari studying there at one point, and Orphiel even in a teaching position.

I think this is always a very good point to bring about. Sanctum has been around for about 20 years and so too have many Ascended with the Guardian philosophy. However, Silverwood has only been under the protection of Guardians for roughly a year, timeline-wise. This is illustrated in the main story arc of Silverwood. I think it's quite believable that many are not lathered xenophobic types!

The guardian opposition to defiants is an important atmosphere to create imo, but not all NPCs need to fit that stereotype. I refuse to believe the sides are that defined, even in Freemarch, the early missions show the locals to be extremely hesitant of the newly formed Defiants, for example. And in Argent Glade, I imagine at least a few of the residents would not rush into such generalizations of ppl (maybe even some they know) based on the actions of the more notable defiants (and if there were some alternate views in the residents is it likely they all moved away from their established homes in Argent Glade?). It IS important to uphold the general tensions associated with a defiant coming into what is basically a Guardian occupied area... however I do think you can allow some diversity in NPC beliefs while doing it, with restraint on how open/cautious they are about it.

I think this is well said. I like to think that is is up to the players to create an atmosphere of a place. Trion can only do so much in providing with with stories, settings, lore and, of course, visuals! But really, the atmosphere is critically dependant on the players.

[Annalea]

Annalea, I'm not really lying about your guild at all. I made a comment saying you and a few others in your guild were more relaxed, free form RPers. Please, give me an example about how I've lied about your guild.

I think it's documented well enough throughout the posts! If you're genuinely interested, that's probably a tangent that's better dealt with through in-game tells or PM's.

[Myuriel]

Though Argent Glade/Silverwood has been under 'Guardian' control for a short time, it has been within and under 'Elven' control since it's inception (The Mirror of Ages is where Tavril and the Elves began their Covenant at the beginning of time). Quicksilver College itself is a school that was made to teach Mathosians, Dwarves, and Elves the fundamentals of Elvenkind Magic - that's canon, and stated in multiple Silverwood quests and by multiple NPCs in the area.

So, yes, perhaps it isn't all 'Guardian! Guardian! Guardian! Rawr!' but the majority of its scholars and people are Elven. At the very least, we can deduce the following:

- Kelari are bad. (That's not my point of view, I personally think Kelari have a rich and flavorful lore.) They turned from Tavril for spirit power. In the Elven point of view, turning from the Covenant is bad, bad, bad. This is a cultural point of view, and not an individual point of view.

- Eth, and Defiants, supposedly harm the land with their sourcestone mining to fuel their pretty awesome magitech machines. High Elves are all about protecting the land. Clear-cut mining + Tree-hugging Elves = Not BFF. Eth and Elves (culturally, not individually) will probably not be piercing thumbs and proclaiming blood-brotherness, let alone buying each other rounds in the local Elven-owned tavern.

I personally find the Elven mind frame and philosophy far more restricting than the Guardian way of thinking. This is especially true when dealing with a race where ninety years ago is just a blink of an eye. I mean, ninety years ago, none of this was on anyone's radar - Defiants or Guardians. Orphiel, Aedraxis, Asha, and Zareph weren't even a twinkle in their daddy's eyes yet -- but many Elven characters (and NPCs) were not-quite middle aged. The core of High Elven way of life has been unchanged, and it's *always* been about protecting Tavril and the land.

I can concede that Argent Glade is newly Guardian, but it -is- Elven. And Elves are very, definitely, hard core rawr when it comes to protecting the land against those they see harming it. This is -the- Elven forest, where an arrow in the *** for tilling for farmland isn't all -that- unexpected. Why think mining and magitech would be *any* different?

-0-

"Those who still held to their task called themselves the High Elves. They kept the covenant, and from their home in Silverwood they walked the wild spaces of Telara, enforcing Tavril’s will with arrow’s sting and arcane wrath. Secretive, keeping their agenda even from the people they protected, the High Elves were often treated with suspicion and fear. High Elves have ever taken the long view and did not always work towards the same goal as the local farmers or sheriff: was the Elf there to save the villagers from the wolves, or the wolves from the villagers?"

[Annalea]

I would think that philosophy would actually rather work in favour of most races. It sounds to me as though Elves are more interested in how the land is treated than petty political squabbles. If an Eth is in the forest, but pays his respects to the land and isn't seeking a new sourcestone mine... why would an Elf care so much?

One could argue that the Eth's ancestors did some serious land-harming. But then, Mathosians also did clear-cut an entire forest, leaving a rare species of tree almost extinct!

Kelari are, of course, going to be the tricky one! People are going to be suspicious of them I'd imagine - but would Davek serve them a drink? I don't think we know enough about Davek to say for sure!

As an interesting aside, however... out of all of the Quicksilver College Masters, only one of them is an Elf.

[Laeris]

I've read this thread and notice some decent points on both sides. I will say though that I feel that lore when wielded as a weapon is merely the tool of a tool. It goes far deeper than mere comparisons between free-form RPers and lore scripters.

RP,in general, is an umbrella play style that can encompass many different types of people and preferences. While free-form RP tends to lend itself to more broad appeal, it doesn't make it perfect for everyone and that's fine. A free-form RPer might be someone who is a Kelari but their character is one who is very much wanting to atone for the misgivings of their ancestors and wishes nothing more than to return home to Silverwood after making amends. A strict follower of lore, in my personal opinion, is often a more short-sighted person who will tell this Kelari, "You don't belong here because all Kelari are Defiants and all Defiants and Guardians come complete with hive minds and they all think and play the same way. If you don't leave, you are a bad RPer."

See, this is what I mean by using lore as a weapon. It is ok to be a lore purist... and in many ways myself and Annalea are exactly that. It does however take a special brand of person to make the leap from being a fan of the lore to someone who wields their interpretation of the lore as a club. In the before mentioned example a couple of posts ago, you can see where someone couldn't possibly fathom why a Defiant was in the Glade. IC reasons were given and the response went straight to out-of-character name-calling, spewings of hatred, and all manners of silliness. I've said it before but RP is best when you RP with someone.

RPing AT someone is akin to bullying. People in-game do not necessarily exist to be used and they often have things they want to do that might not match up with things others want. A good RPer goes with the flow and sometimes genuine conflict breeds great RP. As a player or a guild, you can choose to accept the fact that the world is never black and white (not even the lore in this game is) and be open to possibilities or you can choose to alienate the majority of RPers in this game by calling them all bad, foolish, and dumb for not agreeing with your interpretation of the lore.

The last bit I'll touch on has to do with OOC anger. Again, when I notice someone browbeating another person over their characters and how they're played, they're often quick to jump to insults. If a person is in the Glade as a Defiant but otherwise being very well-behaved, a person like this will come up and tell them to leave. When they refuse, the person will immediately start slinging personal insults ((through OOC methods)). This is not indicative of RP or a conflict with the lore of any kind. It is merely the mark of a bully that does that. They use their narrowly interpreted version of the lore to specifically suit their argument and, in turn, they use that as a basis for bullying someone with what amounts to hate speech.

Now, not all lore purists are bullies. However, if an RPer is this type of personality, they're practically always a lore purist. That's because they have a personality that is like:

My way is right. I want things done my way. This is what the game says and if you don't agree then you're obviously a moron. It is my right and duty to make sure everyone knows you're a moron. I'm going to continue calling you names, insulting your parents, and your wife and kids until you do in fact realize you are a moron. I will continue this until you learn to roleplay the right way.

So, I see most of this thread as not indicative of a difference in RP styles, but more as a conflict of personalities. RP is simply the football being used to belittle another person. In such a case, you can't realistically have a constructive conversation because they're not trying to be constructive or even contribute to the discussion. They're merely emotionally reacting on a personal level to something happening in-character in an RP setting. So, we're not even talking about RP here. This is what is called, "OOC drama."

[Cb872]

To be honest, just reading over the thread, as I said before, why is Argent Glade and the College has to be the focus of RP for both factions, as said, there are plenty of more neutral areas that work out more.

I mean, I don't see people not wanting the Defiants in the college not as much xenophobia, but, the very realistic idea of "Hey, these guys may be spies."

Godmodding notwithstanding, I don't really mind the concept of them being there in disguise or not, just...the thing that bothers me is people who are at least not at least a bit suspicious, or insult the people who do have a problem with it.

Both sides have points honestly, adhering to strict game mechanics can lead to trouble, but so can not taking into account the tone of the area at times. I mean, people say that the area is formerly having both sides, but at the same time we have literal continuous cannon fire at the beaches, small raids on both sides, and the bridge linking the areas blown apart due to the Defiants. (which, smart to them, dishonorable tactics for the other side).

I mean, my mindset tends to typically go into "Smash the dragons, have philosophy arguments later." But still, if you are a full IC defiant, or Guardian, good chance you probably would want to at least question the person who walks into your bar and is either wearing enemy armor or the like.

Plenty of situations that also could allow Defiants and Guardians to sit there and drink, but there should be a bit of set up to me, get things squared out. (which is honestly hard, because I can see arguing your case for every time you go there to new people getting old).

EDIT: Also, in response to Laeris, to be honest, depends on what you mean by lore purists, I mean, I consider myself a purist, but at the same time, I am rarely the type to insult or browbeat a person OOCly concept wise. I mean, at the same time, personally, compromise and voicing straight out what and what shouldn't cross the proverbial line in RP should be considered. Thats typically the biggest issue with mass RP on any game really, everyone has a different line of what deem acceptable and unacceptable, some wouldn't want to see anything but a Guardian/Defiant fighting at all cases, others would be happy to have the occasional drink, some would want to play as a super robot from an anime. You can't define it in black and white really, and generally, there will always be some conflict in where the line stands. But there can be very broad strokes to what is considered RP purity and what is free-form.

Personally though, on these subjects, I try to keep the IC arguments IC though, if there is a problem we have ICly, we resolve it ICly, not through PvP, not through OOC cursing out, have the characters work it out.(I would say if you want to discuss the aspects, within reason of course, because this subject is fun to debate, if I am in game, I'll probably be on Mygirea (Defiant) or Finnett (Guardian) if you want to chat ICly or OOCly really, though) Have a fun RP discussion honestly, bickering at least ICly is always more fun to me though.

[Myuriel]

I don't agree that following the lore equals being a bully, nor do I think it narrow minded. I think it takes a lot of creativity to work within the lore confines, more so than busting out of them and ignoring the lore at will and whim.

For the Kelari example posed above, I would personally eat that up. I would -love- for some meaty roleplay that had someone from the opposite faction trying to atone, or make amends. Character growth is always a goal for myself, otherwise an entire character can stagnate. Yet, all those making-amends and atoning scenarios begin with suspicion, and trials, and perhaps some hatred, for without overcoming adversity there is no story to participate in. Unfortunately, rather than going through steps to be accepted, all the Defiants I see in the Quill are more like, "I'm here. I'm already accepted. Eat it!"

My character would tell that Kelari, "You don't belong here." Because, despite wanting to atone, they do not. That isn't me shutting them down and bullying them away, not at all. It is me sticking to my character arch-type though, and I would hope to move the roleplay to a more appropriate place (Out in the forest, or a Neutral tavern in SS or IPP).

When I see scenarios that blatantly break lore, I don't get on my lore high-horse and publicly shame them. I walk away. Sometimes I bring points to the forum for debate and discussion. Mostly though, I walk away. As a long-time roleplayer, I recognize that people play differently and tend to congregate with like-minded individuals. When styles don't mesh one side generally has to give, and I have no problem going elsewhere. It isn't the place that creates my roleplay, it's my own creativity.

This is how most people handle the conflict between 'free-form' and 'lore strict' styles; one side usually takes their ball and plays elsewhere. So, yes, I object to being called a bully since more and more often, I'm the one turning around and leaving.

Defiants in the Quill is a pretty big sticking point for me, for a lot of reasons. It doesn't, and won't ever, make logical sense to me for many of the reasons I've pointed out in this thread and others. But, also, unlike Defiants, Guardians do -not- have a roleplay hub that can keep out those of the opposite faction. We don't have a place that is patrolled by heavy guards like the Meridian tent or the tavern in Stonefield. I don't know if this a design flaw or intentional, but it doesn't allow us to have our own Pro-Guardian area to play in, where we *can* hate Defiants and don't have to chum up with them as they belly up to the bar.

[Laeris]

I don't recall having called you a bully... but everyone in this thread that is making claims of inappropriate behavior is speaking about people from your guild. Food for thought. You can continue to ignore the point that myself and others are making... but the fact still remains that we are not arguing over who is and is not right about the lore. We're simply saying that what your people do with the lore is akin to bullying. Telling people to **** of the RP hub because we or they don't fit your ivory tower's version of the lore is just not going to fly. Ever.

I swear, every few months, just like with the Sith in Star Wars lore, there has to be 1 guild that takes up the role as the stereotypical genocidal, fanatical Sith empire. Others guilds have tried it and got booed off of the server. But, like with Sith, I guess there always has to be at least 1 or 2 of them right?

[Laeris]

I don't know if this a design flaw or intentional, but it doesn't allow us to have our own Pro-Guardian area to play in, where we *can* hate Defiants and don't have to chum up with them as they belly up to the bar.

Oh, and if you want a place like Meridian where you can chum up with your fellow zealots... we do have a place called Sanctum you know.

[Cb872]

I don't recall having called you a bully... but everyone in this thread that is making claims of inappropriate behavior is speaking about people from your guild. Food for thought. You can continue to ignore the point that myself and others are making... but the fact still remains that we are not arguing over who is and is not right about the lore. We're simply saying that what your people do with the lore is akin to bullying. Telling people to **** of the RP hub because we or they don't fit your ivory tower's version of the lore is just not going to fly. Ever.

I swear, every few months, just like with the Sith in Star Wars lore, there has to be 1 guild that takes up the role as the stereotypical genocidal, fanatical Sith empire. Others guilds have tried it and got booed off of the server. But, like with Sith, I guess there always has to be at least 1 or 2 of them right?

No offense, but if you do have an actual issue, perhaps you should speak with Myuriel in game and get things settled OOCly, insulting the guild on the forums is somewhat rude. (I can't say much on the other people on the thread, but really, lets try to keep it civil)

[Tyrany]

As someone who greatly enjoys roleplaying with both guilds here, I can say this dispute is rather petty. Given how few roleplayers are on this server, and even fewer roleplay guilds, it's a damn shame that what little community there is seems to be at extreme odds.

It's like I told Annalea yesterday. The fact that people actually CARE about lore, even if they disagree, is something that should be considered a blessing given that in most games roleplayers tend to simply forgo anything resembling lore in order to do whatever they please.

With that said, it's only natural that people will interpret lore in their owns ways. In some cases, this clashes and one must either decide to play along with it or take their ball and go home. Neither way is wrong. Depending on the situation, I'll do one or the other!

However, never under any circumstances, should people tell others what's what. Roleplay is subjective. Lore is open to interpretation (which they have stated they purposely did in this game game for a reason). Debating lore is one thing, telling someone they're doin it wrong is not okay. One cannot roleplay incorrectly so long as they're enjoying themselves and not harming anyone.

Just my two cents. I want to see roleplay encouraged and to see it flourish, not see it go down in flames due to petty squabbles and personal issues.