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Thread: Ok guys you got us, can we not have it so extreme the other way now

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default Ok guys you got us, can we not have it so extreme the other way now

    With no healers/healing people die in 3 - 4 seconds with 3 - 4 skills.

    Burst is king. Burst is love, burst is life. If you aren't building burst/cheese you're going to die, quick, without having done much.

    It was even more fun when i was being matched with 5 DPS or so my side, and a premade with 2 DPS and 1 Healer and other rando DPS on the other side.

    We get one of them low, the Healer keeps them up - they get us low, we die. Quickly. They then stack on eachother afk zerg either in the center (half snow map with stone sources) or on the other teams respawn/objective (codex) and continue to kill the other team in either drips and drabs or as a team. Gl focusing a healer when you don't have one and they can just stay at the back of their group, or los with the environment, or when you're being cc'd and dying in seconds etc.

    I then got put on the premade w/ Healer team, against an all DPS other team, lol then afk mess around the entire match knowing it was going to be a free win. It was a free win.

    It's ironic, the PvP is centered around Healers now more than ever. Now more than ever uneven Healer numbers can also decide matches.

    It's still better than nobody dying, but now the next step - increasing TTK from 4 seconds to 10 - 15 seconds with healers being able to maybe extend that by 5 - 10 seconds.

    Where good and constant rotations become a thing again, where potential outplays, escapes, chases and other fun becomes a thing again, where the need for positioning and other awesome combat stuff becomes a thing again.

    How? Proportionally reduce current healing and damage, so we're tankier but healing can't keep someone (especially themselves) up permanently. Increase the TTK by reducing damage/making tankier, while keeping healing in check.

    I personally have come to realize and hate just how much PvP is centered around Healers and how they make or break it at any moment of any balance. I'm not just talking of the past balance we had, where it turns out it was just damage that was heavily reduced and has just now been increased. (by alot)

    It turns out the Healers are the problem, not the healing to damage numbers specifically.

    If Healing is strong, the game mode is centered around them - if damage is strong, the game mode is centered around them. If healer numbers are uneven between teams, the majority of the time the one with more healers wins - so the game mode is centered around them. The only time it isn't centered around them, is when it's nerfed so hard that they barely do anything either way. Then there's no point in even having the role in pvp.

    You'd think since 95% of pvp is people playing DPS, that it'd be centered around them somehow.

    Since anyone can play any role in any class in this game, we're in the unique position to remove this pretty big and common problem by removing healing from warfronts altogether - but i guess we have to think of the 2 dedicated pvp healers and 4 or 5 casual pve healers that want to play a warfront from time to time, first. For some reason.

    I get wanting to play Healer in a warfront, but at the cost of the major issues it brings?

    Imagine it for just a second (at the risk of making a wall of text even longer) - if today we removed the healing role entirely from pvp and reduced damage by 50% - 75% and by tomorrow we suddenly had the perfect pvp balance - where we have these crazy awesome and fun battles that last awhile, then people die. Where everyone does their bit as equals. Where no 1 or 2 people are the center of the game mode, where they need to be focused and balanced around. Where neither no-one dies or people die in seconds, because of a mechanic that's hard to account for. Where the outcome of the matchmaking no longer decides some games and Trion can finally put the age old problem of PvP balance to rest.

    "I have a dream"
    Last edited by whiskiz; 04-13-2018 at 08:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker AJ Senpai's Avatar
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    I honestly think they should revert back to the old numbers of healing and damage. The only change they had to do is change the system. Make it one healer per team and problem solved.

    I honestly like it when you get punished not being by your healer or your team. However I don't want cross healing in PvP period. That's just my opinion on fixing unkillable teams. Now we're just stuck with getting 2-3 shotted or even sometimes 1 shotted.

    I only played a handful of warfronts and this Sabo guy had 75 killing blows in one match. And the second place guy was another Sabo with 50+ kills. Burst builds are so broken atm.

    I really think they should have it where you can not change your role freely but that is a mechanic in the game which I dont know they have a way of fixing it. I just want this feature in PvP. Doing dungeons and other stuff however, allow role changing.

    But over all, I find PvP oddly enough fun since people actually die rather than having no one die. My games are all brutally one sided however where one team is completely wiping the other team. So winning feels really good but when you're losing, you are losing by a blowout.
    Last edited by AJ Senpai; 04-12-2018 at 01:35 AM.

  3. #3
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    I am looking forward to the give everyone in warfronts 200% increase health to offset the damage now.

  4. #4
    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskiz View Post
    Imagine it for just a second (at the risk of making a wall of text even longer) - if today we removed the healing role entirely from pvp [...]

    "I have a dream"
    [...] then I think a lot of ppl will quit the game, including me. Generally speaking, a healer should always be able to keep himself up in a 1:1 situation, otherwise a healer would be useless in Warfronts, if it's 2:1 then the healer should die quickly. In WFs though you have crosshealing. I'm guessing that currently the crosshealing is a lot stronger than the amount of DoTs ticking on players. What we (probably) need to do is make AOE and DoT specs stronger in PvP to counter that.
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  5. #5
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    This is the reason why I'm gone after my first month. Trion clearly shows that they can't handle balancing in PvP, back 2 WoW.
    Averwinge - Hailol
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    Telaran Cal_KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Averwinge View Post
    This is the reason why I'm gone after my first month. Trion clearly shows that they can't handle balancing in PvP, back 2 WoW.
    I actually tried WoW out last night and pretty much every class is still viable. I had much more fun due to not facing the same 3 builds in PvP. RIFT's nostalgia is lost because of the changes over time affecting the current PvP. I went back and watch a lot of old RIFT PvP videos and realize that the game is not the same game.

    Health pools
    Souls differences
    CC reduction
    Damage margins per soul

    **New Souls** have HUGE desparity in damage/healing values because it was based on end game so the 1-50 numbers don't jive.**
    "I always wanted to play a PvP game where nobody dies." - Rift PvP

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    I used to like to play pvp as a change. In 99% of cases as a healer (Chloro), I could kill one or the other in 1: 1. Of course not every fight. A real pvp'ler I can not beat as occasion pvp'ler. They were never easy fights but they were fun. Sometimes I have rescued the dd's and was saved by the dd's if it was not a 1: 1 situation.
    Now as chloro I'm a 1 shot. As Fk a 2 shot, because I have better and more instant heals.

    Then I tried as a tank, chance of survival is now quite good. No wonder at over 50k HP. Damage well, burst is only 2k (WTH) as tank lvl 50. But even 2 Krits are enough to kill me. Have successively got 2 over 30k blows. This can not be healed and emergency skills can not be pressed within 1 or 2 sec. This would bring anyway nothing in the values.
    The complete system is completely out of control.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fia View Post
    [...] then I think a lot of ppl will quit the game, including me. Generally speaking, a healer should always be able to keep himself up in a 1:1 situation, otherwise a healer would be useless in Warfronts, if it's 2:1 then the healer should die quickly. In WFs though you have crosshealing. I'm guessing that currently the crosshealing is a lot stronger than the amount of DoTs ticking on players. What we (probably) need to do is make AOE and DoT specs stronger in PvP to counter that.
    Lol let's be real, no-one would leave the game over not being able to play a healer in warfronts anymore. Again - it may indeed upset a couple people, but that's a very worth trade imo.

    It's odd, in almost every other aspect a company will accomodate and directly target the majority market - it's a smart business decision - but here we're suddenly all inclusive to the detriment of all others. Why? Because it's a generic staple of pvp traditionally. The thought process never usually goes beyond that.

    Smh.

    I can guarantee no-one would leave after some of the fun fights that not having a healer role, while still being relatively tanky, would bring. After it was no longer about focusing one person, burst insta gib, focus next, burst insta gib, focus next, burst insta gib rinse and repeat or where no-one dies.

    Where people get low and they have the time to decide to try to run away, or rotate to the back of the team (but not suddenly be full again for no reason) where you can dive in and chase, or switch target so both teams eventually chip away at eachother evenly - instead of instagib or god mode. Stealthers having fun on the side, chasing escapers and jumping peeps not in the main group without fear of insta popping and other shenanigans. Warriors and tanky mofos in the middle of the fray having a blast, while all the ranged strategically scope peeps left and right and all the other awesomeness it'd bring.

    To say nothing of all the fun smaller skirmishes on side objectives (in the certain warfronts that allow for them)

    I can guarantee the healing role would be quickly forgotten.

    It's a big, bold move so let's be real - it'd never happen. But it's still cool to think about haha.
    Last edited by whiskiz; 04-15-2018 at 01:25 AM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskiz View Post
    Lol let's be real, no-one would leave the game over not being able to play a healer in warfronts anymore. Again - it may indeed upset a couple people, but that's a very worth trade imo.
    Just want to chime in and say I would leave too. I don't really like pvp, but when I do, I only heal.
    Archy Mage, Face, Prime, Primal Rouge, Rogue, Eric, W, @ Laethys --- Nefarious ---

  10. #10
    Soulwalker Crescenss's Avatar
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    Default balance PvP

    i have no idea how play heal at 50 lvl, maybe you show me the way?
    When my Fullnes of Life heal for 6-12k, i got insane dmg, from sabo, and MA. Paragons hit hard too, but i can kite them. I mean, healers dont have resources for healing all this dmg.
    Defiler dots still very strong, i bored from play defiler, can you buff inq?
    And nerf MA again, one guy just barrage me and im died. Yes, who cares about me, but with me died half of my team.
    Coz MA cleave too strong. And dont tell me "oh you must split", coz we play in rift.
    Anyway, me and some of my mates back to Rift, for PvP only. And all of us hope trying refresh old memories, like CQ, prestige ranks, valor and vengeance stats (if possible).
    Last edited by Crescenss; 04-15-2018 at 12:00 PM.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archyface View Post
    Just want to chime in and say I would leave too. I don't really like pvp, but when I do, I only heal.
    This, is why i said in my original post:

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskiz View Post
    But i guess we have to think of the 2 dedicated pvp healers and 4 or 5 casual pve healers that want to play a warfront from time to time, first. For some reason.
    There is always going to be a few people, that don't want things to change because it personally suits their playstyle, or just because that's how it's always been done, or just plain don't know any better - because that's how it's always been done. Even though they only engage with it very casually and to the detriment of the game mode.

    Quote Originally Posted by whiskiz View Post
    I get wanting to play Healer in a warfront, but at the cost of the major issues it brings?
    Last edited by whiskiz; 04-15-2018 at 11:39 PM.

  12. #12
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    I was merely pointing out that you can't make big sweeping statements like 'nobody will quit' if x happens. And it's not just one or two people. Only one or two people have posted which means there's at least that.

    Removing the healer role from pvp would be such a fundamental shift in game mechanics that I can't begin to imagine how difficult it would be to implement. I get you're trying to suggest ways to improve it, but having heals and dps is kind of core to pvp in this MMO I feel. If you want pvp without healers, then I'd daresay that that kind of thing is better represented in other games.
    Archy Mage, Face, Prime, Primal Rouge, Rogue, Eric, W, @ Laethys --- Nefarious ---

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple AsteroidX's Avatar
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    would removing the healer from pvp include self heals. Ideas kinda broken on the roll out.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker
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    I just want to say that if they remove healing from pvp i quit Rift. I play Rift for two reason, holy trinity and flexibility in what, when and how i want to do. If i wanted to play games without holy trinity there are some mmos that ofer that. Removing healing will also kill flexibility, some times i switch roles (i have 5 of them at lvl 46) 3 times on a single warfront, just becouse the situation changes and demands other behavior.

    Ps1. Why ppl always want to change games to their own playstyle ?
    Ps2. Sorry for my english ;)

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    I don't see anything wrong with healing having an important and valuable role in warfronts. It certainly does in other areas of the game; you will notice that the difference in effectiveness between a dungeon group with one or zero healers is considerably more stark.

    The argument that most people play dps, so therefore they should remove everything except dps, is absurd. Do you also believe it would be a better game if they nerfed all mob damage by 90% and just removed tanking and healing from the game entirely? Dedicated roles make team gameplay more meaningful, so that you're not just a bunch of people soloing near one another. In both pve and pvp.

    Reducing the number of ways people can play the game is not the way to go. If anything, they should focus on making tanking a more effective pvp strategy as well.

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