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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Hammerknell was deleted?

  1. #16
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    T3: Bindings of Blood, Grim Awakening
    I believe GA was T2 actually

    For HK let's hope they get it back because just Rise of the phenix is nowhere near enough and a lot of people are going to quit if it's not put back in, let's hope that having the old code is enough to restore it somehow

  2.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clowd View Post
    Thanks BigDataDude, for the clarity. Though I have one question:

    It is clear that there is the ability to copy zones, then uptune them into a new instance. We see this with the many "Intrepid" dungeons, raids, and chronicles in the current Live game.

    If you don't mind me asking - What is the reason why the level 65 Hammerknell cannot be, or is not being, copied like an Intrepid, and tuned that for level 50?
    Copying takes a long time and itís probably not what you think. Even after copying you need to remap the old values to the new and the amount of data points is massive. Then after you manually change everything you would need to check it a million times to make sure you didnít typo or forget that one thing

    Making intrepids and what not isnít easy, I know that now

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDataDude View Post
    Copying takes a long time and itís probably not what you think. Even after copying you need to remap the old values to the new and the amount of data points is massive. Then after you manually change everything you would need to check it a million times to make sure you didnít typo or forget that one thing

    Making intrepids and what not isnít easy, I know that now
    Thanks for the clarity! Clearly my assumptions on the ease of this process were incorrect. I hope you can get something working for HK-50, I know a lot of players would be excited to see it return.
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  4. #19
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    Raid tiers should be consolidated to avoid intrepids as much as possible. Take Hammerknell back to 50; killing the 65 version in the process is fine. Get rid of Intrepid Gilded Prophecy also.


    Make Mind of Madness and Comet of Ahnket the tier 2 level 65 raids. There is no tier 3 anymore. You may lose a tier, but at least all the raids are fresh. I don't think prime will need three tiers by that point anyway.
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  5. #20
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    Color me disappointed ... not that we've had any time to play prime so far unfortunately, but yes, HK was one of the things were were so looking forward to....

    BigDataDude, thanks for the explanation, but still - the original HK should have been left alone (just my opinion of course). Kudos that you even are working on things like these in your spare time.


  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clowd View Post
    Thanks for the clarity! Clearly my assumptions on the ease of this process were incorrect. I hope you can get something working for HK-50, I know a lot of players would be excited to see it return.
    I would also enjoy seeing a prime version of HK 50 on live too, but thats just me :P
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  7. #22
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    I'll be brutally honest here. Without HK I think that will kill Prime for me. I don't like to do ultimatiums, but I was fairly clear in saying one of my big reasons for coming back was to do Waves of Madness again. Without a level 50 HK there can't really be Waves of Madness. I'm not alone in this, alot of people were looking forward to seeing Waves of Madness. Either doing it again or for people who weren't there at 1.5, seeing it for the first time and finding out what all the fuss was about.

    it seems totally bonkers to me that a copy of the original HK wasn't kept. I realize that you can't forsee eventualities like this but as Maeloda said, this is why you don't monkey with content in this way. HK never should have been redone in this manner.

    I think there is time, probably about 3 months to get this fixed. If Trion doesn't have anyone other than BDD (in his off time no less) working on this, then they need to give him some help. It sounds like a small thing but its not. HK was what put Rift on the map as a serious MMO contender. Even WoW players had to respect it and for those of us who were no progression raiders, the world event was to me one of the greatest MMO memories I have. It should be a priority to get this fixed.

    I believe GA was T2 actually
    it was. I remember when I was actively raiding in a very relaxed progression sense, trying to do this. It was a really difficult, well tuned and well designed raid and did a really good job of tiding people over until PBB came out.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khelendross View Post
    it seems totally bonkers to me that a copy of the original HK wasn't kept. I realize that you can't forsee eventualities like this but as Maeloda said, this is why you don't monkey with content in this way. HK never should have been redone in this manner.
    Couldn't agree more. This decision is one in a long line of what I would call "in which universe does this make any sense??"-decisions.
    Progressing through proper Hamerknell again is a big part of the reason why I decided to look past the insanity I read in patch notes since I left (removal of damage rating from ranged weapons: because clearly how hard you hit with a bow depends on how sharp your daggers are ).

    Why even bother with a "progression server" that returns to the old days when the most interesting raid (let's be clear, is there any other reason to be on a "progression server" other than raiding?) is not there??
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDataDude View Post
    Hello!

    Let me start off by saying I am not directly on the Rift team so I maybe a little wrong here but I think this needs some clarification and they can correct me if I am wrong

    No, HK was not "deleted" in the strictest sense. It was however leveled up to what is live now.

    What does this mean?
    If you take all the things from the original HK and adjust the levels of each thing and tune it to be a level 65 raid you will have the HK we have today.

    So just turn it back!! How hard can it be noob??? Geez!

    Let me try to paint a clearer picture. If we take Akylios and give him a database ID of 1000, then we take all the things that make him possible, models, sounds, scripts, abilities, etc etc. And we associate all those to ID 1000, then we change ID 1000 to lvl65 and maybe tune a couple things here and there we didnt delete him but it is forever altered to what it is now. Everything associated to ID 1000, many levels deep, is now changed which is probably 100s or 1000s of things believe it or not for just Akylios. Now think of the entire zone.

    I really dont know all the pieces of it all because I am not a part of rift but I can see the data.

    In order to get a copy of the original HK back you will have to very literally copy every single element from the HK zone all the way down to the lowest level and remap them all to new IDs from the top to the bottom level. This means all the scripts need to use new ID's of everything, abilities, graphics, sounds, etc all the ID's will change and need to all be remapped to new ones.

    Besides just copying things the old data also needs to fit the new data model as things have changed over time. There are new, changed, and deleted data points that need to be accounted for and they are at many levels.

    It is a fairly complex problem to solve but we do have the original HK data and I am staring at it right now

    So what is the solution??
    Well, try and remap it all. This can't be done by hand because of how many objects there are and literally trying to manually remap each and every value would take a long long time. Months of someones time I imagine, there is an unbelievable amount of data points that need to be touched and adjusted perfectly to make it all work.

    Ok so you said nothing good, what now?
    Well, I am in the process of using my "off-time" and allowed some work time to try and remap all this programmatically. I can't guarantee it will work as it is pretty complex but I'm hopeful.
    So, that is where it is at I hope this helps a little.

    ~BDD
    Just a question regarding the 'not being able to manually revert'. I'm a dev myself, and usually us devs tend to use some form of versioning tool. So isn't it possible to just revert the HK changeset?
    I don't know the project structure of Rift, and I could be wrong in my assumption that eg. the database uses some form of versioning (which isn't very common, I know, but it's possible ). But it might be a possibility.

  10.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicariidae View Post
    Just a question regarding the 'not being able to manually revert'. I'm a dev myself, and usually us devs tend to use some form of versioning tool. So isn't it possible to just revert the HK changeset?
    I don't know the project structure of Rift, and I could be wrong in my assumption that eg. the database uses some form of versioning (which isn't very common, I know, but it's possible ). But it might be a possibility.
    You can't revert something back that far and think it will work with what you have now. Its not like HK is it own clean object or set, not sure what you want to call it. If you did revert back and get old HK values you would also get many other things from that time frame, remove many after, and generally be in a terrible state.Ya, you don't really want to do that. It would be more work to try and figure out what you just did in that scenario.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDataDude View Post
    You can't revert something back that far and think it will work with what you have now. Its not like HK is it own clean object or set, not sure what you want to call it. If you did revert back and get old HK values you would also get many other things from that time frame, remove many after, and generally be in a terrible state.Ya, you don't really want to do that. It would be more work to try and figure out what you just did in that scenario.
    Well it all depends on what the scope of the changeset is. But I can imagine when the changes were made the person/team didn't expect they would ever wanna revert them and just did a truckload of other stuff as well. I can imagine it being pretty difficult to do it that way, especially if HK/raids aren't 'modules'.

    By the way, I think I can speak for most people around here; thanks for looking into this!
    Last edited by Sicariidae; 03-13-2018 at 04:37 AM.

  12. #27
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicariidae View Post
    Just a question regarding the 'not being able to manually revert'. I'm a dev myself, and usually us devs tend to use some form of versioning tool. So isn't it possible to just revert the HK changeset?
    I don't know the project structure of Rift, and I could be wrong in my assumption that eg. the database uses some form of versioning (which isn't very common, I know, but it's possible ). But it might be a possibility.
    As a software developer you should understand that reverting change made long time ago in actively developing system is a very complex task - and no vcs will help you there - even when resolving conflicts is not an issue.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isp View Post
    As a software developer you should understand that reverting change made long time ago in actively developing system is a very complex task - and no vcs will help you there - even when resolving conflicts is not an issue.
    It really depends on how you structure everything. I'm actually working on a project where we have a branch for every customer and a general product branch.
    Some changes of said product branch are moved to customers others aren't, and sometimes we have to make merged versions with a mash up of old-product, new-product and customer code.

    Difference with Rift being, our customers pay for having their own derived versions of the base product, and this was the idea from the start of the project. So everything is set up in a way to enable us to do this (a lot of branches, product is very modular, a lot of small 'feature' changesets).

    And yes it requires a lot of conflict resolving (basically what I'm doing at this very moment).

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sicariidae View Post
    It really depends on how you structure everything. I'm actually working on a project where we have a branch for every customer and a general product branch.
    Some changes of said product branch are moved to customers others aren't, and sometimes we have to make merged versions with a mash up of old-product, new-product and customer code.

    Difference with Rift being, our customers pay for having their own derived versions of the base product, and this was the idea from the start of the project. So everything is set up in a way to enable us to do this (a lot of branches, product is very modular, a lot of small 'feature' changesets).

    And yes it requires a lot of conflict resolving (basically what I'm doing at this very moment).
    And now image that you did global refactoring and completely changed how everything work. And then did global refactoring 5 more times. Ofc it is impossible when you have long living branches - in such case your codebase is stale and you would not be able to do any big changes, so such system does not qualify as actively developed. From dev comments I think that rift codebase is bad and a lot of stuff is overcomplicated there, but requesting revert any old change (beside very trivial ones) is a very big ask in almost any system.
    But it's offtopic already - let's hope that BDD would be able to do something about HK-50, but it is a huge work.
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