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Thread: Status of Mage balancing: Mystic Archer and DPS

  1. #1
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    Default Status of Mage balancing: Mystic Archer and DPS

    This is a discussion based upon what was said during the livestream based upon a question. I asked this question specifically because only Mystic Archer based dps builds seem capable of handling content, dps-wise, when it comes to Mages.

    My question for the livestream was: will Mages see other dps specs competitive with Mystic Archer based builds? The answer given by Amary on stream seemed to suggest that Mystic Archer would be nerfed while the other builds left the same. This I could understand, except for the following.

    Firstly, when Mystic Archer was released, Keyens was asked the intended niche for Mystic Archer. The answer: open world, leveling, questing, AE, etc. IE, not intended to be a raid dps soul. Yet here we are on Prime. Now the answering of this question suggested that the way Prime works, with the level 50 level cap, is the reason MA is so good, and it is not an intentional design that MA have such high dps as compared to Pyro or Warlock, the traditional ST dps souls for Mage. (I'm not even going to touch Harbinger, which should also be a high dps)

    I would be fine with nothing else but a Mystic Archer nerf... if the content actually allowed Mages to do damage that met the needs of the content.

    For example, my very first expert dungeon was a Charmer's Caldera. I was told that for Jultharin dps must do a minimum of 1k dps each to successfully kill the boss. I was not capable of this -- some of my gear is still green quest gear, though I have the stats required to enter the dungeons; it's by no means top end gear. I do not consider myself the best Mage player, but I also consider myself above average, and I couldn't do more than 850. It is therefore not unreasonable to expect that other Mages in my position would be doing similar damage.

    My build is 51 pyro with harb and sc as offsouls. I do not play MA. I do not believe that my choice to not play a soul designed for open world content should hurt my performance inside dungeons and raids. And yet it puts me behind.

    So I am going to ask again, and please can you consider the needs of the content as well when you tell me that only MA needs to be nerfed and no other balance needs doing:
    Can other Mage DPS souls be brought in line with the damage that Mystic Archer is capable of, so that we can complete content without making our groupmates angry?
    Iphigeneia // Jehan // Coriolana // Cytrine@Faeblight
    "Just because I'm mad doesn't mean I'm not right!" -Sylver Valis

  2. #2
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    Same could be said about sab or warrior each one has only one soul of max dps it's sad wish they would fix other souls .But sab is way more op then MA so
    Last edited by Diebymyhands; 04-15-2018 at 10:40 AM.

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    As I don't play rogue, and my warrior is not level 50, I don't find myself qualified to speak on those classes.

    Trion keeps asking for constructive, qualitative feedback. I can't provide it for rogue and sab or warriors or clerics, but I do play Mage and I can speak on that. If you want to talk about rogues or warriors and the balance they need, great! but I don't know it enough to make any discussions on it.

    I am not trying to just complain -- since I like the game and the game play and I want Rift to succeed I will provide feedback where I can.

    I don't care if MA is OP, so long as other mage souls are at least capable of doing enough to clear content. If MA is 15% stronger at dps than any other mage dps soul, again, that's fine, so long as it's not the only dps soul that you can take in an expert dungeon or a raid because the others won't meed dps checks. That's my concern. If it's the content requiring too high of damage, ok. If the souls are underpowered, ok. But what I'm encountering is an expert boss requiring over 1k dps from each of 3 dps players, that means you have to have high performing dps; if only one soul in each class is at all capable of doing that, then we have a problem. And that's where I'm going.

    Maybe Trion has all this data. Maybe they already know. Maybe they don't. But I'm trying to provide what I can to help make it better. Even if they ignore me and I end up leaving Prime because I can't stand to play MA, that's fine, but until then I will do my best to make gameplay fun, even if all I can do is provide Mage class feedback.
    Iphigeneia // Jehan // Coriolana // Cytrine@Faeblight
    "Just because I'm mad doesn't mean I'm not right!" -Sylver Valis

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    I played beta and release for like 4-5months without news soul which one said u need 1k dps? We did t2 experts without all these new souls n everoyne had around 800dps me and 5 man cleared everyone of them with lower dps so i dont know which one your talking about req 1000dps But i agree with all souls should be = in dps to make every soul viable and fun to play which is what your trying to say right? This is how i can speak on all class's have same porblem only thing is op is new souls cause they are tuned for live which is lvl 70 i think=p But i saying they should fix or make them all = and that way if u want to play something fun over viable u can which would make rift probably so much better of a game if all souls where close or = to dps










    Quote Originally Posted by Iphigeneia View Post
    As I don't play rogue, and my warrior is not level 50, I don't find myself qualified to speak on those classes.

    Trion keeps asking for constructive, qualitative feedback. I can't provide it for rogue and sab or warriors or clerics, but I do play Mage and I can speak on that. If you want to talk about rogues or warriors and the balance they need, great! but I don't know it enough to make any discussions on it.

    I am not trying to just complain -- since I like the game and the game play and I want Rift to succeed I will provide feedback where I can.

    I don't care if MA is OP, so long as other mage souls are at least capable of doing enough to clear content. If MA is 15% stronger at dps than any other mage dps soul, again, that's fine, so long as it's not the only dps soul that you can take in an expert dungeon or a raid because the others won't meed dps checks. That's my concern. If it's the content requiring too high of damage, ok. If the souls are underpowered, ok. But what I'm encountering is an expert boss requiring over 1k dps from each of 3 dps players, that means you have to have high performing dps; if only one soul in each class is at all capable of doing that, then we have a problem. And that's where I'm going.

    Maybe Trion has all this data. Maybe they already know. Maybe they don't. But I'm trying to provide what I can to help make it better. Even if they ignore me and I end up leaving Prime because I can't stand to play MA, that's fine, but until then I will do my best to make gameplay fun, even if all I can do is provide Mage class feedback.

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    The reason people expect 1000 or 1200 or 1400 dps is because dungeon bosses were tuned to have a certain amount of HP in a previous patch (a week or two ago). The only way to complete timed achievements on these bosses is with certain amount of dmg coming from each player.

    If you believe Trion set the HP values of those bosses at the correct amount that they want, then you put everyone down to 800 dps, there is no way to complete dungeon acheivements until months later after fully raid geared. This is not a reverse progression server so that makes no sense. Players have have been playing with and become accustomed to a range of damage (1400+, unbuffed with no consumables) from geared and skilled players, and this is in line with being able to achieve the dungeon achievements.

    So that is the benchmark for dps to hit, around 1400. If Trion wants to change the expert dungeon boss health down 43% lower than it is now and make ppl do 800 dps that's fine too, it's literally the same thing.
    Last edited by Artifa; 04-15-2018 at 02:37 PM.
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    The issue stems from new soul additions and mechanics changes to classes over the years that make them OP on Prime. Unfortunately, they don't have the resources to do any meaningful class balance so you're pretty much railroaded into a single spec to stay competitive. With the introduction of personal loot, it's probably best just to re-roll rogue and save your mage for the OP FK healing spec. Even MA dps is lackluster when compared to rogues/clerics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ting View Post
    The issue stems from new soul additions and mechanics changes to classes over the years that make them OP on Prime. Unfortunately, they don't have the resources to do any meaningful class balance so you're pretty much railroaded into a single spec to stay competitive. With the introduction of personal loot, it's probably best just to re-roll rogue and save your mage for the OP FK healing spec. Even MA dps is lackluster when compared to rogues/clerics.
    The very fact that you find it constructive to tell me that my only option to have fun in rift is play an entirely different class is why this thread exists. We should just delete clerics, mages, amd warriors and let riftstalkers, physicians, and saboteurs clear all the content, maybe?

    No. Climate is right. Currently with content tuned as it is, the souls designed for dps will need to be buffed. This is what will cause people to leave in droves. It has done already. People don't want to do sab and MA for everything.

    If Trion doesn't want to tweak class damage upwards then content should be tuned downwards. We shouldn't be telling people to roll rogue just to be capable of clearing expert dungeons.

    If i wanted to play a game where only certain classes tanked or healed or dpsed I'd play wow with their boring as hell class design. But Rift was specifically for class flexibility. So I'm asking for this. The soul trees are the heart of Rift. Please keep them well balanced.
    Iphigeneia // Jehan // Coriolana // Cytrine@Faeblight
    "Just because I'm mad doesn't mean I'm not right!" -Sylver Valis

  8. #8
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    I said same thing climate did jbtw but i asked for this when they released the game back in 2011 wont happen if it did this game wouldn't have died so easy before prime

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iphigeneia View Post
    If Trion doesn't want to tweak class damage upwards then content should be tuned downwards. We shouldn't be telling people to roll rogue just to be capable of clearing expert dungeons.
    No no no.
    You guys don't get it.
    Saboteur is way too powerful, and the only change we need is a nerf for this soul.
    You don't need rogues to dps and clean experts dungeons.
    I perform very well with my cleric, playing runeshaper, defiler and cabalist for AoE when i need to dps.
    Rapid assault should not be so easy without raid gear. The fact you can obtain those achievements without any effort yet is because saboteur and MA are too strong.
    I killed Jultharin yesterday, our 3 dps were 2 warriors and me with my cleric.
    Mystic archer could also be nerfed. I disagree with OP, no need to buff something else yet.
    The new souls brought too much dps in the game, and once again, you don't need that much dps to clear the dungeon content.
    The expert dungeons are supposed to be difficult with the current gear.
    Saboteurs and MA are ruining the game by making it too easy.
    Last edited by Kehild; 04-18-2018 at 05:51 AM.

  10. #10
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    I think you're missing the point.

    I don't dare to pug because i know I'll be vote kicked from the first boss. Fortunately I have guildmates to go to experts with me. We've left two dungeons because myself and another dps were below the minimum required to pass the boss we were facing. Rather than wipe repeatedly with no chance, we just queued another dungeon to work on getting more gear.

    Expert dungeons should not be tuned for the highest performing builds in the greatest possible gear from that tier of content. Expert dungeons should be tuned for average dps in minimum gear required to enter them. Difficulty clearing them, 10 minute fights, having to wipe a few times to teach dps where not to stand or heals what has to be cleansed, that's difficulty.

    Being told you need 1k dps to get the boss down per player, and only having 850-900 because you haven't gotten any expert gear yet, is demoralising.

    MA doesn't need to be nerfed. Based on what I've been seeing in the content and how I've seen mages performing, it's right at where it needs to be to clear the content and dps requirements. Other specs are below.

    Please stop comparing MA to Saboteur, also. Again, from what I've seen in the content, Saboteurs are so far above MA as to be the difference between mage dps and warrior dps.

    I'm looking for the other mage specs to be brought in line with Mystic Archer. Something like a slight buff to Primary Bolt damage to give a small increase across the board. Nothing big, nothing crazy, nothing overhaul, just a slight tick upwards of damage. That's all that I would want to see.

    As it stands, from the raids being cleared today, it's all about Sabs and MA. That just disappoints the hell out of me. Well, there's adds, so you need AE or cleave. Harbinger and Warlock and Stormcaller are AE and cleaving souls. Why are they left in the dust? Answer: they don't perform to the level.

    Next time you say MA needs a big nerf, take some Mages who don't play MA in their build at all, and no rogues, and clear the content. Then report back.
    Iphigeneia // Jehan // Coriolana // Cytrine@Faeblight
    "Just because I'm mad doesn't mean I'm not right!" -Sylver Valis

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kehild View Post
    No no no.
    You guys don't get it.
    Saboteur is way too powerful, and the only change we need is a nerf for this soul.
    You don't need rogues to dps and clean experts dungeons.
    I perform very well with my cleric, playing runeshaper, defiler and cabalist for AoE when i need to dps.
    Rapid assault should not be so easy without raid gear. The fact you can obtain those achievements without any effort yet is because saboteur and MA are too strong.
    I killed Jultharin yesterday, our 3 dps were 2 warriors and me with my cleric.
    Mystic archer could also be nerfed. I disagree with OP, no need to buff something else yet.
    The new souls brought too much dps in the game, and once again, you don't need that much dps to clear the dungeon content.
    The expert dungeons are supposed to be difficult with the current gear.
    Saboteurs and MA are ruining the game by making it too easy.
    Without any effort you say?

    The players I run with are in near BiS pre-raid gear and lessers, playing at near max potential for the builds with the best potential damage and healing outputs that we have found. We farmed all the experts, bought all the gear, have full enchants and consumables to be ready for raids. So think again before you assume that this is done "without any effort"

    Now, we have these most or all of these achievements already, so do you think it matters to us? It doesn't.

    We're saying that others (even those silly red-named players) should have the chance to get them. This requires that all classes have the ability to deal a similar amount of damage to each other (say, within 5-10% of each other). I personally know at least 3 very well geared warriors who range from good to amazing at MMOs that have quit the game over the balance problems (they also got the achievements, but only by playing tank / support / heals).

    If the change you are asking for is implemented and we can't do them in pre-raid gear (without bringing warriors in line with others) then a group of warriors probably can't do them even in FULL raid gear.

    Regardless, dungeon achievements are meant to be done in max DUNGEON gear, not raid gear. You should not have to go back to dungeon achievements after clearing much more difficult content.
    Climate
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  12. #12
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    a combination of ma and sab being brought in line and dungeon boss health being brought in line would be a quicker fix than trying to bring up every other soul and soul combination to the same level.

    i mean some of the popular vanilla soul combinations are a good 40% a lazy MA or sab. that's pretty bad and those of us who came back to experience the original game as best as we can are a little disappointed and feel like we are not able to contribute unless we buy and use a non-vanilla soul.

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