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Thread: Sab is OP

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer Burninalways's Avatar
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    Default Sab is OP

    Got an idea to fix sab, not great but could be a good thing

    Increase every Sab aoe ability to hit 10 enemies, 3 becomes 10.

    Reduce the damage of each Sab aoe ability by 70% while also adding this:
    Damage is increased by 7% per enemy hit.

    So your dealing less damage to one target.


    Also reverse Grand Explosion, name change as well, to have the opposite effect:

    Grand Implosion
    Your Saboteur Explosives strike up to a max of 3 targets. Your damage is increased by 50% while this effect is active.

    Then swap with the 40 point root ability to make it harder to get.
    Last edited by Burninalways; 03-09-2018 at 11:07 AM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Dademore's Avatar
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    Just to add to this a bit.

    My friend is VERY good at playing a Rogue. Mostly Assassin, Tactician, or Bard. On Prime he has been nearly kicked from groups because he does not like playing Sab. Sab is so OP right now that even an extremely poor player can out DPS anyone with 2-3 buttons.

    This should be addressed.

  3. #3
    Gox
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    We will see how it fairs at level 50 but its OP at lower levels but no real reason to nerf if it just has all its power early on and doesn't scale up well.

    Its the only rogue spec to play at least before 30. But it is nothing like original OP sab from early 2011 that spec was soo broke it dominated pvp and pve more than anything else at the time.
    Last edited by Gox; 03-10-2018 at 07:00 PM.

  4. #4
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Great idea. No one is close to 50 or end game content on prime and sab plays fine on live but lets start making knee jerk balance changes to a soul 2 days into the sub 25 leveling experience because sab gets most of its primary mechanics earlier than most souls.

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  5. #5
    Plane Walker Malvolio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    Great idea. No one is close to 50 or end game content on prime and sab plays fine on live but lets start making knee jerk balance changes to a soul 2 days into the sub 25 leveling experience because sab gets most of its primary mechanics earlier than most souls.

    I understand that in many cases things are balanced to endgame but, there are clearly steps you can take that only affect lower levels. Moving keystones, tweaking level scaled damage, etc.. You act as if the only way to fix it is to nerf the class at all tiers.

    My case and point for the consequences of this: my party wiped on DD spider queen and our sab actually mocked another rogue for playing "anything but sab". Temporary or not that should not happen.

    If Prime is indeed an attempt to revitalize the game you must treat the entire game, not just the endgame, as an ambassador for Trion. Perception is reality and anyone playing or watching Rift streams (which are growing in popularity) see this kind of imbalance in both PvE and PvP they will make judgments about the game that might not be accurate. No-one should make snap judgments but if it can be avoided why not try?

    I must admit for transparency my Prime character is a rogue and you bet your butt I have a Sab spec as 1 of my 3 (was tanking during the spidey queen interaction not disparaging a fellow rogue). I'm not the biggest sab fan but it was insanely more efficient for both PvE and PvP.

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    I certainly noticed Sab being powerful early on.

    But now that I'm mid 20s I'm finding that in Dungeons I'm being Out-dpsed by Mages, and sometimes Shamans on Single target pulls.

    Yes, I'm still ahead on AOE, but not by alot.

    I'd sit and watch this one, I don't think there's much point in re-balancing a class entirely off 1-20.

    I bought in to the whole Sab OP thing and re-rolled from my 15 Mage, I kinda regret it now tbh.
    Last edited by Breaker87; 03-10-2018 at 09:39 PM.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Burninalways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gox View Post
    We will see how it fairs at level 50 but its OP at lower levels but no real reason to nerf if it just has all its power early on and doesn't scale up well.

    Its the only rogue spec to play at least before 30. But it is nothing like original OP sab from early 2011 that spec was soo broke it dominated pvp and pve more than anything else at the time.
    Sab should not be doing as much single target as it does AoE.

    In Warfronts if you don't focus killing Sabs as soon as they appear they will kill you one at a time, without any response from you, or kill everyone in a cluster. Don't blame the healers as they can't heal through that much damage early on.

    In parses on a bosses Sabs are always doing more single target damage than any other soul.

    Level 16 Rogue - Saboteur
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    RotF 2nd Boss
    Sab is OP-rotf-2nd-boss.jpg
    Last edited by Burninalways; 03-11-2018 at 01:12 AM. Reason: Attachment

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Burninalways's Avatar
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    If the Devs are worried about class balance on live here's what you do:

    Create ranks for each ability that lets you adjust abilities in different level brackets.

    Rank 1: Level 1 - 49
    Rank 2: Level 50
    Rank 3: Level 51 - 59
    Rank 4: Level 60
    Rank 5: Level 61 - 64
    Rank 6: Level 65
    Rank 7: Level 66 - 69
    Rank 8: Level 70

    So you can add or remove mechanics, increase or decrease damage/healing/absorption in any bracket and it wouldn't affect the whole soul for the entire game.

    Most abilities wouldn't change, but this lets you use a scalpel instead of a hammer when deal with class balance. Which will be very important in Prime.

    Expamle:
    My idea could be added to Rank 1, and disappear at Rank 2. Though this might confuse people it would bring balance to the game forever.

  9. #9
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninalways View Post

    wat.jpg
    So where exactly are the resources to develop this new system going to come from, and who is going to balance 56 souls across 5 callings over 8 seperate level brackets when just level 70 meta specs on live haven't been touched for almost a year?

    It's also not a new idea, skills in Rift had levels that required upgrading as you progressed and they did balance them individually... 6 years ago. Then they changed it. To what we have now. For a reason.

    And even if this was magically wished into the game by a genie, by the time it was up and running you wilil have been 50 (or higher) for long enough that you'll barely remember how salty you were for those 3 days in the level 20 warfront bracket. In fact you'll probably say something like "Why waste time on that? There's all these other things to do. I suffered through it so should the new people!"

    I mean every issue you're seeing in class inequality at low levels on Prime has existed on live. For years. And no one has said a thing. For years. It hasn't been a relevant conversation since they turned off level locking at the latest.
    Last edited by Stihl; 03-11-2018 at 01:03 AM.
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  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer Burninalways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    So where exactly are the resources to develop this new system going to come from, and who is going to balance 56 souls across 5 callings over 8 seperate level brackets when just level 70 meta specs on live haven't been touched for almost a year?
    They don't have to add it to every soul now, just add when needed to balance the game properly.
    So they can do Rank 1 and 2 now for Saboteur then it's fixed just for Prime from Level 1-49

    It's also not a new idea, skills in Rift had levels that required upgrading as you progressed and they did balance them individually... 6 years ago. Then they changed it. To what we have now.
    It's where my idea came from.
    Back then you had to buy each rank as you increased by 1 level or more, then it was made to auto level as you did and then they removed it. The reason must of been too much work to do 60 different ranks for 36 Souls.

    And even if this was magically wished into the game by a genie, by the time it was up and running you wilil have been 50 (or higher) for long enough that you'll barely remember how salty you were for those 3 days in the level 20 warfront bracket. In fact you'll probably say something like "Why waste time on that? There's all these other things to do. I suffered through it so should the new people!"
    So what happens when Tempest it so OP at Level 50 or any other Soul for every other bracket of levels?
    This is about the past and future of Prime.

    I mean every issue you're seeing in class inequality at low levels on Prime has existed on live. For years. And no one has said a thing. For years. It hasn't been a relevant conversation since they turned off level locking at the latest.
    It's more relevant now to the thousands for people playing Prime.
    Last edited by Burninalways; 03-11-2018 at 01:45 AM.

  11. #11
    Sword of Telara Refuge's Avatar
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    Isn't the whole point of this server is to somewhat ignore community suggestions, keep it untouched. As that's what messed up the game in the first place..

    Minor balances regarding actual changes of the tree is an absolute nono. Keep it as vanilla as can be, flaws and all. You're talking about level 20 PvP here. Class balance changes need to happen on live way before anything touches prime. Plus sabs were WAY worse in vanilla.

    I mean I'm playing prime too but if a balance change hit Rift Prime sooner than Live I would be furious. We haven't had one in 6 months.
    Last edited by Refuge; 03-12-2018 at 07:02 AM.
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  12. #12
    Rift Chaser Clowd's Avatar
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    Sab is OP at lower levels because you can very easily get the damage bonus for Time Bomb before level 20, and the "Volatility" talent gives Detonate a huge damage boost thanks to how much AP you have. This will even out in higher levels.

    Really, the best solution would be to find a way to move the "Long Fuse" an "Volatility" talents higher in the tree (for post level 20). However, I believe the team is looking moreso at level 50+ balance than at the current leveling balance.
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  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara aileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clowd View Post
    Sab is OP at lower levels because you can very easily get the damage bonus for Time Bomb before level 20, and the "Volatility" talent gives Detonate a huge damage boost thanks to how much AP you have. This will even out in higher levels.

    Really, the best solution would be to find a way to move the "Long Fuse" an "Volatility" talents higher in the tree (for post level 20). However, I believe the team is looking moreso at level 50+ balance than at the current leveling balance.
    This is actually bad suggestion because this will possibly effect live and most of the sab tree and abilities beyond 25+ on root of the soul tree is useless because of the most balances on that soul done on legendary abilities on live, like cloud maker is useless on prime since you need to build chemical mixtures and there is no way you can build it like live if you are okay with waiting around 1 min to make 10 stacks of chemical mixture yea sure.

    I mean at first point I don't know why sab got rework, it was working good and never needed a rework or rework like this at all...

    Also not only time bomb but all of the sticky bombs hitting hard thats also one of the reason people play nbsab or sinsab specs on live literally they hit harder than most ability both nightblade and sin has...

    Thats also once again proves the screams of live players about balances should be done and solution is not nerfing sab but making other souls in the same position as it is.
    Last edited by aileen; 03-12-2018 at 07:44 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Sab isn't OP. Well, at least not in a way that matters. Let me explain.

    You guys are approaching this from the perspective of "this sab in my level 18 warfront is wrecking everyone's face". Well yes. But you cannot balance for that. You will stay in that bracket for like a week at most. What matters is end game. Is sab OP at level 50? If that is the case (which I guarantee its not due to the the way AOE damage scales) then adjustments need to be made.

    It would be stupid of them to change anything for any class based on the responses of people that aren't max level yet.

    No one wants to hear that cause no one likes to lose in warfronts but as a player who has literally played sab since the game launched, even when it was terrible for 2 years, I have some advice to help you eliminate the "mad bomber threat". The biggest thing is to have alot of spread healing. Sabs do alot of "white damage" which inflates our overall damage done numbers but our burst potential is lower than alot of classes and our biggest burst is on a clock. So healing will help against us. Focusing the sab is also good cause we are definitely made of paper. Good sabs (the ones that decimate in BG) are usually all in on Sab and as such have very little in the way of survivability. Focus firing on sabs will end us pretty quick.
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  15. #15
    Rift Chaser Clowd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aileen View Post
    This is actually bad suggestion because this will possibly effect live and most of the sab tree and abilities beyond 25+ on root of the soul tree is useless because of the most balances on that soul done on legendary abilities on live, like cloud maker is useless on prime since you need to build chemical mixtures and there is no way you can build it like live if you are okay with waiting around 1 min to make 10 stacks of chemical mixture yea sure.

    I mean at first point I don't know why sab got rework, it was working good and never needed a rework or rework like this at all...

    Also not only time bomb but all of the sticky bombs hitting hard thats also one of the reason people play nbsab or sinsab specs on live literally they hit harder than most ability both nightblade and sin has...

    Thats also once again proves the screams of live players about balances should be done and solution is not nerfing sab but making other souls in the same position as it is.
    I was not aware at the time that Sab was so important for higher level builds on live. Good to know, that definitely makes my suggestion a bad idea. I was merely looking at it isolated as-is on Prime.
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