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Thread: Endgame Scaling

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Endgame Scaling

    I would like to start out by saying that I was incredibly hyped and ready for the idea of a Vanilla Rift server. I understood it would not be exactly the same and many changes will still affect the game in a way that prevents it from being identical to my original, past experience. I have put a large amount of effort into playing this new prime server so far, and have been striving to cap level as quickly as I can through my work schedule.

    Currently I have achieved level 49, despite the abysmal state of exp gain, and the horrific grind that you have to undertake to progress efficiently, but that much I can handle. But the thing that has truely obliterating my desire to play this game, and my ability to enjoy even playing, Is the state of endgame stats and scaling with abilities.

    There is no possible way that this can be the way the game is intentionally designed, nor the way people want to play. There has to be some mistake here or bug that has been overlooked. So lets delve into the problem.

    Right off the bat the first thing I will comment on is the difference in base stat scaling. First, here are images of patch 1.2, very early rift endgame players, who are level 50.



    Currently this is my level 49 Mage



    An undergeared level 49, has 12k hp, in comparison to early level 50 pvp geared players, whom have on average 5-6k hp. Right off the bat this is an astounding problem....

    Why you ask? Does not everyone scale up and we do more damage too so its okay?
    No... no we do not scale up. We do not do more damage.

    Part of the primary reason I enjoy rift and have returned to it is because of the spec options that make everyones class choices personal and unique. You should be able to enjoy all of the specs and play and customize. But JUST BEING ABLE TO PLAY THEM does not justify that almost every spec is underwhelmingly under powered and the damage tooltips and numbers are incredibly inaccurate. As fun as the idea is, I cannot enjoy playing a Necromancer/Warlock (my favorite build) when the damage output is abysmal. It does not even compare to MA, and the damage skills literally do not work.

    Here are 3 abilities with a full warlock, sub necromancer, build that state their damage outputs. Also I will display the build so you can see exactly what im working with, and that you can see that I have put enough points into the tree to significantly increase the damage they should be doing.

    The Build:


    The abilities:




    These tooltips clearly state that the abilities should (over the course of their duration) be doing over 2000 damage each. Though I understand that resistances and mitigation factor in, the results are astounding.



    These damage abilities tick for between 60 and 80 damage a piece, and here are the totals:



    But this does not apply specifically to DoT's Here is Warlocks strongest ability:



    Guess what it hit for with 5 DoT's applied?



    A 1400 damage ability, modified 20% additional damage x 5, ended up hitting for 630 damage on a target dummy. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    These results and inaccuracies are universal across the board for our damaging abilities.
    These skills do not even allow a player enough damage output to successfully kill a standard level 50 mob before dying to it without using skills to CC and Heal. The state of damage and scaling is absolute insanity. To struggle for multiple minutes to kill a single level 50 regular mob in stillmoor? The fact that I would have to spec into MA to have ANY chance of effectively killing them? In a game that many people enjoy primarily for the unique multitudes of builds and spec options? What in the Fresh Hell . . .

    This is the part that I remind you that players are walking around with 12k-20k+ hp as level 50's. Take a moment to consider this damage output playing a build that should be perfectly viable, against a tank with 20k hp. This is also what makes very few spec's even viable.

    Mage is the best example of this and I dont even have to tell you the spec because EVERYONE knows exactly what mage spec does good damage, and is the only viable damage dealing spec in pve and pvp endgame.

    What spec? yup you guessed it. Mystic Archer.

    I can only imagine that the reason this spec does decent damage is that it was released maybe after scaling and damaging changes, and perhaps they wanted it to have strength for the lack of CC, but in comparison, every other spec is almost unplayable to anyone wanting to contribute to the damage meter, to kill that boss, that mob, that player, that elite, those invasions.

    Honestly I had the highest hopes for Rift Prime, but this, if unchanged, will kill it for me.
    I did not play Rift Prime to dungeon grind as the "OP Spec" for 49 levels just to find out the endgame statistics are inaccurate and do not work correctly, and that the other spec's are almost useless in comparison to newer released souls that were not even originally part of the game.

    I welcome all feedback and input in the Hopes to bring light to this problem in the state of affairs at endgame.

    I will lastly state that the one answer I simply do not care for is telling me that "things will be better at 60" or "oh this is just like this for level 50, things get better at higher levels when they add them". If these things are intended to be this way?. . . . If thats true? Then hit level 50, and stop playing the game until they patch update to 60. You know damn strait that is not what Trion intends for people to do.

  2. #2
    Telaran Khronic's Avatar
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    I feel the same way about Saboteur. I personally find it boring and repetitive, but it's the "OP" rogue spec currently. I'm only level 38, so perhaps it's different at 50 with some gear. However, I really miss the old melee builds like Asstalker and even Sabdancer. I'm going to be pretty bummed if we're all funneled into Saboteur during GSB and other raids.
    Khron | DPS Rogue

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khronic View Post
    I feel the same way about Saboteur. I personally find it boring and repetitive, but it's the "OP" rogue spec currently. I'm only level 38, so perhaps it's different at 50 with some gear. However, I really miss the old melee builds like Asstalker and even Sabdancer. I'm going to be pretty bummed if we're all funneled into Saboteur during GSB and other raids.
    I should add, my rogue friend told me before i posted this that his gear and hitting level 50 made no difference, and if anything he deals less damage. He still struggles to 1v1 a standard 50 stillmoor mob.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple
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    Props to you. Finally someone who has done some research and put evidence behind an incredibly evident issue. I think a lot of us who were passionate for the game came back because it was an opportunity to relive old content we loved and eventually play content we didn't experience since we left at F2P. Fully knowing this wasn't going to be a carbon copy of Vanilla but also hopeful that there would be at least some effort into making the server playable.

    I kind-of got the feeling that it would be like this when they announced the possibility of progression servers and then within a less than two month period released them. They didn't give themselves enough time to properly prepare.

    Not only that, but they went the absolute lazy route by making the large majority of the systems (and numbers) connected to live which is why we see so many of the issues with class balance, xp gain, and game play. Instead of preparing a proper progression server they pushed one out ASAP. I'm not saying this was a money grab but they definitely are making it seem like it is one.

    I'm only holding out hope for a short time before I give up for the final time.
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  5. #5
    Rift Disciple
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    I may be off on all or some of this, but I am basing this off in-game numbers. Full disclosure, I am only lvl 41 right now and the numbers surely vary. I also haven't played necro or lock yet, but I am a mage.

    I have 230 death resist, hovering over it shows: from an even level attacker, Death dmg should be reduced by 36.11% at that amount of resist.

    A target 1 level below me would have it's Death damage reduced by 36.62%.

    I am sure that these will vary based on values of armor (for phys dmg) and resist (for magical) and how many levels apart the attacker/defender are, whether they are a boss mob, etc.

    BUT -- dealing 630 dmg on a 1400 dmg spell is 45% of tooltip, or a 55% reduction. The 1 level difference only accounts for about a 1.5% change in damage done (at 230 resist). So i have no idea how much resist it would take to do that, but I don't think it is a reasonable amount for a non-boss mob of only 1 level above you.

    It is not a reasonable expectation that a level 50 mob that is not a boss mob would have such a large reduction. Do other spell damage types see similar reduction when hitting the dummy?
    Last edited by Artifa; 03-18-2018 at 04:29 PM.
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  6. #6
    Telaran
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    Here is the extent of information we have gotten from the team about balance. Jokes, snide remarks, and pompous attitudes about it. The one thing they have done (note - labeled a "MAJOR class balance change,") is laughable at best, and allows me to not DIE to mobs lvl 46 (im 48) as I watch MA pull 3-4 mobs at a time around me.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/236947717?t=17m40s

    We need some transparency from the balance dev team and some plan of attack so the player base has hope this isn't a cluster at endgame.
    Last edited by Pajac1; 03-18-2018 at 04:28 PM.
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  7. #7
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifa View Post
    I may be off on all or some of this, but I am basing this off in-game numbers. Full disclosure, I am only lvl 41 right now and the numbers surely vary. I also haven't played necro or lock yet, but I am a mage.

    I have 230 death resist, hovering over it shows: from an even level attacker, Death dmg should be reduced by 36.11% at that amount of resist.

    A target 1 level below me would have it's Death damage reduced by 36.62%.

    I am sure that these will vary based on values of armor (for phys dmg) and resist (for magical) and how many levels apart the attacker/defender are, whether they are a boss mob, etc.

    BUT -- dealing 630 dmg on a 1400 dmg spell is 45% of tooltip, or a 55% reduction. The 1 level difference only accounts for about a 1.5% change in damage done (at 230 resist). So i have no idea how much resist it would take to do that, but I don't think it is a reasonable amount for a non-boss mob of only 1 level above you.

    It is not a reasonable expectation that a level 50 mob that is not a boss mob would have such a large reduction. Do other spell damage types see similar reduction when hitting the dummy?
    I have considered that it might be just high resistances of mobs or damage reduction. It's still very gamebreaking if it is the case that those mobs have those kind of reductions. Mind you as an original rift player this was definitely not the case in true vanilla.

    I will also add that in the spec I linked for warlock/necro, there is a 3 point talent that bypasses 30% of enemies resistances. The damage is just incredibly weak and inaccurately displayed. Also EVEN IF the mob has that much resistance, we still havent discussed the 100% dmg increase its supposed to get from having 5 death based damage over time effects applied, making the ability hit for (if working intended) 2800 damage.

    So Really its a 2800 damage ability with 30% resist penetration thats hitting for 630
    Last edited by RoqSolid; 03-18-2018 at 04:42 PM.

  8. #8
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    Just for science could you post a meter for a regular mystic archer build or regular pyro build (or anything honestly) versus the same dummy to see what the difference comes out to?

    I am very curious.
    Last edited by Artifa; 03-18-2018 at 04:46 PM.
    Climate
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  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artifa View Post
    Just for science could you post a meter for a regular mystic archer build or regular pyro build (or anything honestly) versus the same dummy to see what the difference comes out to?

    I am very curious.
    Honestly the damage reduction still applies to MA, but the spec's are imbalanced. Thats a whole other issue aside. Flash fire (MA skill) is supposed to do (and im reading this from my skillbook at level 49) 4247 -4333 damage on hit. On the dummy without any buffs running it hits for 967...... but fact that theyre skillshots are likely why theyre so powerful, its not targeted abilities, and they lack any real CC. What makes MA so powerful is that each different ability increases elemental damage and gives a unique damage buff. when targets arent mobile itll always pump out the most damage in comparison to other specs, but it still does suffer the same damage reduction that other specs do. If anything I;'d say MA's raw power is just a bit too high. but again thats a balance issue, and not to do with the fact that peoples defensive stats are strangely bolstered, as well as NPC's defensive stats, but our offensive capabilities lack any strength, and do not parallel the defensive increases that are applied in game.

  10. #10
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    I think archers are too high also (at least early on while leveling) but that may not be the case at 50 in experts or raids, it is hard to tell. MA soul has a ton of non-damage talents in the tree so they have to rely on other souls for a lot of their points. That could be good or bad depending on what you can manage to pick up..
    Climate
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  11. #11
    Plane Walker Scourge's Avatar
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    I'm level 50 with quite a bit of weak gear. My rift/invasion farming 40 MA spec does ~1k on the mathosian dummy. 51 Pyro does ~900.

    Pyro will scale better in raids and with gear/SP, but MA is 100% mobile and has incredible cleave/target swap.

    Stats in MA:



    Edit: there are more pyromancer offsouls I need to test that I think might have an edge. Also need to test a defilemancer spec.
    Last edited by Scourge; 03-19-2018 at 12:26 AM.
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  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara aileen's Avatar
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    That changes applied when SL released because of mob hp etc increased and for making things easier to returning , newly starting players this values or in other words stat weights and calculations changed to help them because they can't have full raid gear and will struggle on new zones.

    This is also one of the problems caused the current live reaching max integer values on bosses etc which is actually sad and one of the reason prime made so hard for monster hp value and damage wise specially on any content except expert dungeons and rifts because people reaching high hp values and damage numbers compared to what it was on vanilla.

    For example when ROS released 600+ dps was considered good but now on level 30 you can do that dps.

    and here is the full t1 raid geared (except 2 relics missing) rogue stats before HK release taken on 05/07/2011, right now on prime with t1 expert drops i already have same dex as it was...
    Last edited by aileen; 03-19-2018 at 09:47 AM.
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  13. #13
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    I'm not lvl 50 and still won't be for a while but this got me intrigued. From the screenshots it looks like there's a blanket nerf to player dmg in range of 70%-75%, give or take. Kinda like the pvp nerf on Live (though i don't remember the the values used there).

    I still have the old data for lvl 50 mobs on the spreadsheet and the resist value there is 373. But since i don't have a lvl 50 char i can't recheck/retest if this is still the case and what the resist coefficient is. The damage reduction due to armor/resist goes like this:

    dmg_reduction% = resist / (resist + resist_coef)
    And this has usually been set to 15% reduction at max level. The type of mob doesn't matter. (in case of SFP this is no longer the case with armor/physical reduction).

    It goes the same for armor and physical reduction. Old value for armor for lvl 50 was 1109.

    Edit: testing a bit on lvl 10 dummy as lvl 38 the reduction vs tooltip looks around 56%. The reduction due to dummy's resist should prob be very small due to it's value and lvl difference.
    Last edited by Jotunn; 03-19-2018 at 11:37 AM.

  14. #14
    Telaran Chantweaver's Avatar
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    All I know is something needs to be done quickly. As a long time avid Rift supporter I am getting discouraged by the one spec per class to rule them all. That is not Rift game play intention. If it is they need to come out and state that.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    This is a paid server, monthly paid... so we need to get the deserved treatment for that, balance patches needs to happen.

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