Increasing Valor was a mistake. Please back roll

[Ehxon]

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. I guess I'll be damned and do instead of damned and don't.

~Daglar

i do feel a bit bad for you sometimes with trying to please everyone @ once without pissing off others. welcome to the mmo gaming world lol

its kind of like dealing with my wife sometimes, if i say something she gets pissed and if i dont say anything its the same.....

[Xillean]

Edit: Nevermind not going to aggro the mods. On topic I agree with the dev team at least addressing the pvp ttk and taking steps to fix it

[Daglar]

I gather. My point was I hope you feel strongly about this, not doing it because the community feels strongly about it. This community would destroy a game if they had our ways because we aren't game designers. I just hope it is a genuine concern of yours and the teams.

It is a real concern of ours - if it wasn't I wouldn't have someone spend time on this stuff. We are not out here to make changes just to make changes - we are out here making changes that we feel make the game better. This has been true since day one of Alpha.

There are plenty of things that the community has given feedback on that we don't agree with and we don't take action on. There are other things that the community has asked for, that we agree with, and we just have not found the right time to put in.

~Daglar

[Strente]

It is a real concern of ours - if it wasn't I wouldn't have someone spend time on this stuff. We are not out here to make changes just to make changes - we are out here making changes that we feel make the game better. This has been true since day one of Alpha.

There are plenty of things that the community has given feedback on that we don't agree with and we don't take action on. There are other things that the community has asked for, that we agree with, and we just have not found the right time to put in.

~Daglar

You turn me on so hard. Keep up the good work!

[Eughe]

You turn me on so hard. Keep up the good work!

I agree Daggy has been extremely sexy as of late. So authoritative.

[CericX]

It is a real concern of ours - if it wasn't I wouldn't have someone spend time on this stuff. We are not out here to make changes just to make changes - we are out here making changes that we feel make the game better. This has been true since day one of Alpha.

There are plenty of things that the community has given feedback on that we don't agree with and we don't take action on. There are other things that the community has asked for, that we agree with, and we just have not found the right time to put in.

~Daglar

This change was right imo. I've done nothing but DPS tonight and have had no issues with things as they stand. It might not be perfect yet for everyone, but a damn site better than 1gcd deaths.

[dday]

finally got to play and pvp is back..i think maybe a small heal nerf and things will be perfect. i still hit plenty hard in melee and im still getting hit plenty hard from all classes and people still havent sractched the surface yet.

thanks trion for listening to the playerbase, this change was so needed since 1.11

[Fujitasix]

It is a real concern of ours - if it wasn't I wouldn't have someone spend time on this stuff. We are not out here to make changes just to make changes - we are out here making changes that we feel make the game better. This has been true since day one of Alpha.

~Daglar

Do you have the capability to adjust healing for each venue independently?

CQ feels about right with all the crazy zergs - it gives people and extra second or two to hit their oh shizz button, but they still "melt" if left in the open and catching a bunch of heat.

On the flip side, it took nearly 3 minutes to score the first kill in Black Garden. I ended up with 14 KBs, which was 6 more than the rest of both teams COMBINED - only because I was pulling people out of LoS at opportune times to finish them off, and using a full PvE build.

There's no doubt healing is off kilter, but instead of blanket adjustments - can you:

1. Reduce TTH by changing values in different environments - i.e. leave CQ alone, tweak the warfronts. The more players, the more healing is a force multiplier, and has always been that way.

2. Increase mana costs in PvP only.

3. Reduce the 5% per tick mana returns to 2.5%. Healers stay powerful (by abusing their own mana pool and powerful TTH high cost abilities) but have a "disarm" of sorts for spamming emergency heals.

Something other than a blanket % reduction would be a much more attractive method to skinning this cat IMO.

And *screw* all the whiners - thank you for taking action on TTK. DPS vs DPS is dead nuts perfect right now. Time to tweak the heals.

[Violacea]

It will get changed. It is pretty silly when a 61bd, without much interruptions, can just slap away on a mage all through Fated Blades, all though Blade soul and Parity, all through Dualism, and finally have to re-treat the battle after Fated Blades attempt #2 didn't work.

I just beat on people with a high DPS spec for 1m+. If they have heals who know what they are doing, they won't die. Same goes for me. Me and my healer just stand around and get beat on by 5 - 6 people and live.

I don't see what there is to adapt to. I use some of the highest bursty and glassy specs. They just tickle everyone. If they don't have heals, it still feels absurdly long. If it was truly an issue I'd have just tried a 2.5% bump. /shrug The devs wanted penalty and only 1 person at a time in Xmas Whitefall to have the 10% damage boost wolf. It was powerful. So I am not sure who thought reducing all damage by 12% would produce anything but absurdness. The funny part is, my healer wanted to stop playing before I did. They got bored of nobody dying and healing themselves against 5+ DPS tickling them.

[Kyera]

I think the rate of those channeled mana returns needs to be cut in half for PvP. There should be some more severe punishment for going OOM due to spamming CI, etc.

Why the hell did we need to drown them in mana regen tools to begin with?

What happened to disengaging to drink and popping tonics, especially with the neutering of mana drains across the board?

[dday]

It will get changed. It is pretty silly when a 61bd, without much interruptions, can just slap away on a mage all through Fated Blades, all though Blade soul and Parity, all through Dualism, and finally have to re-treat the battle after Fated Blades attempt #2 didn't work.

I just beat on people with a high DPS spec for 1m+. If they have heals who know what they are doing, they won't die. Same goes for me. Me and my healer just stand around and get beat on by 5 - 6 people and live.

I don't see what there is to adapt to. I use some of the highest bursty and glassy specs. They just tickle everyone. If they don't have heals, it still feels absurdly long. If it was truly an issue I'd have just tried a 2.5% bump. /shrug The devs wanted penalty and only 1 person at a time in Xmas Whitefall to have the 10% damage boost wolf. It was powerful. So I am not sure who thought reducing all damage by 12% would produce anything but absurdness. The funny part is, my healer wanted to stop playing before I did. They got bored of nobody dying and healing themselves against 5+ DPS tickling them.

Healing is high but dps is perfect IMO. builders are hitting for 2 to 4k, nothing seems absurd, if i roll two fair away from the group i still get melted. people are dying plenty unless there is a lot of healing. right now i think healing needs a small nerf and pvp will be stable for the first time since 1.11. burst is controlled and there aren't people dying in 3 secs like before.

if someone doesn't have heals how fast to you want to kill them, just curious because i would want 10secs in a 1 v1 in glass cannon vs glass cannon. i think pvp is legit awesome right now if they just nerfed healing a tad. battles that dont involve are the prefect amount of time

[Kyera]

I guess to give my comments on this change (without experiencing it, but just based on what I'm seeing and my experience with similar changes in the past), it seems that nearly any time we see sweeping blanket changes to just about anything, we end up with a balance situation that is problematic in an entirely different way. We've seen blanket buffs and nerfs to PvP damage reduction (via valor or flat values), blanket nerfs to AoE damage/healing, blanket nerfs to ST healing (with the removal of heal debuffs), and blanket nerfs to both (gear normalization/PvP gear changes). They all seem to end up killing certain specs/functions in situations where they're actually valuable and not necessarily imbalanced (cf. stacked AoE healing/damage in something like BG versus stacking 10 Sabs and 10 AoE healers in CQ/Scion).

It left me sour in Warhammer -- where blanket nerfs to AoE damage designed to prevent stacked Pyromancers from being able to wipe zergs easily in keeps led to Magus and Engineer having absolutely garbage performance for most of the game's life -- and it's certainly leaving me sour here.

I think fine tuning of specifics needs to be in play, around a given metric (pick a target engagement volume and work to get the balance picture set up for that -- say around 10v10 or 15v15), and then you can apply blanket values based on player scaling (especially for instances). The suggestion to put in healing (and/or damage, in lesser quantities) buffs/reductions for instances with more people seems to be a decent fix if we're going to swear by blanket nerfs.

If you set your target for a "typical" 15v15 comp of something like 7 dps, 4 healers, 4 hybrids/utility/tanks a side, you could scale up values for instances with lesser or greater capacities, and it frankly might work better than having flat changes aimed at killing the effectiveness of seven stacked AoE healers in a Scion completely neuter Bards/Tacticians/raid-healing Chloromancers/Wardens in something like Black Garden.

I agree that it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, but a lot of that has to do with the changes being the equivalent of alternately shoving one's head into an oven and then into a freezer instead finding a place where it's ****ing room temperature.

And then putting some freaking fans and space heaters in each room to adjust the temperature of that room individually. Goddammit.

[Credo]

I'm not happy with the change, but it's no reason for me to get all crazy. If healers dominating warfronts was the worst thing going on or had ever happened in my life I'd be happy as hell.

This nonsense is why I hate people that fit the typical stereotype suburb idiot. Could some of you please go out, maybe to a 3rd world country, and for the love of all that is slightly decent actually encounter some hardship. Not some made up hardship like how "hard" college is, or that one time you found out there was no toilet paper a little too late.

[Kyera]

This nonsense is why I hate people that fit the typical stereotype suburb idiot. Could some of you please go out, maybe to a 3rd world country, and for the love of all that is slightly decent actually encounter some hardship. Not some made up hardship like how "hard" college is, or that one time you found out there was no toilet paper a little too late.

At some point you get tired of watching the pendulum swing back and forth and decide it's time to ask when the hell we're going to get a digital clock.

(I know these analogies are terrible.)

[dday]

At some point you get tired of watching the pendulum swing back and forth and decide it's time to ask when the hell we're going to get a digital clock.

(I know these analogies are terrible.)

this is the closest its been ever IMO, with the exception of a small healing nerf everything seems fine. I see all classes doing good damage the only problems i see is when there are a 2 sents and a warden on a team that know what they are doing, pretty much good mode right now.

nerf healing slightly but dont mess with dps its legit perfect. nothing of mine has hit for over 4.5k in a full dps spec which IMO is right where it needs to be. hitting for 8k or hitting a rift spear for a 75k aoe attack was dumb.