warrior healing debuff

[cowboydan]

i dont really have a problem with warriors, i think their damage is alittle overboard but one of the main problems for me is their undispellable healing debuff. i know trion won't look at this but i think if that became cleansable the damage would be alot more manageable....I couldn't imagine a full geared NB/RS rogue with an irremovable heal debuff, thats the only reason i can live vs them. btw im a mage

[nemecis]

i dont really have a problem with warriors, i think their damage is alittle overboard but one of the main problems for me is their undispellable healing debuff. i know trion won't look at this but i think if that became cleansable the damage would be alot more manageable....I couldn't imagine a full geared NB/RS rogue with an irremovable heal debuff, thats the only reason i can live vs them. btw im a mage

It was made clensable ... and the change was quickly reverted.

I personally believe there is a strong case for the removal of LW, VM and FB from the game entirely, and balancing healing accordingly.

Retain the ST, cooldown on use debuffs as those are much more strategic in their use.

Nothing new with your thread however, this is a topic that's received attention since launch, and basically nothing has changed, minus the introductino of VM/FB with 1.5.

[cowboydan]

i havent been playing rift very long, didnt know this has been an issue since launch....aoe healing debuff seems like something that should need attention considering their damage output

[Aguni]

It was made clensable ... and the change was quickly reverted.

It was due to the insane amount of QQ that was created.
Much like when Champion was tweaked to do less ST damage...


Warrior QQ is an amazing thing.

[Rheven]

It was due to the insane amount of QQ that was created.
Much like when Champion was tweaked to do less ST damage...


Warrior QQ is an amazing thing.

Oh yeah, you don't wanta mess with them warriors. LOL

[Snags]

It was made clensable ... and the change was quickly reverted.

That's because, at the time, warriors were lagging behind in pvp and they needed LW to not be cleansable to stay on par with other classes. Right now, though, with the kind of burst damage they have, it's a joke that they still have an uncleansable healing debuff on top -_-

Edit:
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...mparisons.html this is a long, mostly civil and educational thread on the subject PErhaps the best discussion on healing debuffs to date...

[Aguni]

That's because, at the time, warriors were lagging behind in pvp and they needed LW to not be cleansable to stay on par with other classes.

No they didn't.
The fact that it is passively applied makes it an incredibly powerful healing debuff already.
SO it being cleansable would have done absolutely nothing to the warrior calling in PvP.
Even more so because every single calling has access to healing debuffs. So even if you did fail to somehow apply LW, it wasn't a case of no one being able to re-apply it.

[nemecis]

That's because, at the time, warriors were lagging behind in pvp and they needed LW to not be cleansable to stay on par with other classes. Right now, though, with the kind of burst damage they have, it's a joke that they still have an uncleansable healing debuff on top -_-

So if tomorrow, Clerics got their god patch and saw their damage drastically improved, Rogues saw return to form of NB/RS dominance, or heck maybe BladeDancer was revamped and became the new FOTM, Mages saw the return of 1.1 Pyro, or 1.4 SC, and Warriors were left stagnant ... then LW would be okay?

Point is, can't balance LW around the assumption that current class balance will remain the same. Warriors just like every other class have gone through the ebs and flows of "balance". One constant was LW however. Just as many mages feel hogtied to Pyro, Rogues to RS, Clerics to Inq, Warriors resent being relegated to Champ for LW and RB for elemental damage as our must haves.

Remove LW and it's ilk, and we'd be able to better balance. Simply making it clensable doesn't solve anything, unless of course you've lucked out and your team has a stand-out clenser at its disposal every match.

Actually, one could take it a step further and make LW a buff that can be purged ... that'd certainly help, again assumes there's a purge handy, but far more builds offer a purge than a clense. It's also easier to purge a single target than clense 3-10.

For the record, the reason Warriors QQ'd about the changes to LW was because we were given nothing to compensate for its loss. It wasn't made into a leach like VM/FB, we didn't gain utility elsewhere, and most dramatic of all, healing wasn't changed to compensate. My belief is that presently, heals are balanced around the presumption that LW can exist. As such, they are over tuned when it's not present. LW being clensable directly leads to healing being over tuned once again. If LW is going to be changed, whether it's removed, made clensable, reduced %, made into a purgable buff or something else entirely ... healing would need to be adjusted to compensate for the new realities. This to me is the biggest balance issue around any modification to LW. (which for the record I'm not against)

[Cygfa]

So if tomorrow, Clerics got their god patch and saw their damage drastically improved, Rogues saw return to form of NB/RS dominance, or heck maybe BladeDancer was revamped and became the new FOTM, Mages saw the return of 1.1 Pyro, or 1.4 SC, and Warriors were left stagnant ... then LW would be okay?

Point is, can't balance LW around the assumption that current class balance will remain the same. Warriors just like every other class have gone through the ebs and flows of "balance". One constant was LW however. Just as many mages feel hogtied to Pyro, Rogues to RS, Clerics to Inq, Warriors resent being relegated to Champ for LW and RB for elemental damage as our must haves.

Remove LW and it's ilk, and we'd be able to better balance. Simply making it clensable doesn't solve anything, unless of course you've lucked out and your team has a stand-out clenser at its disposal every match.

Actually, one could take it a step further and make LW a buff that can be purged ... that'd certainly help, again assumes there's a purge handy, but far more builds offer a purge than a clense. It's also easier to purge a single target than clense 3-10.

For the record, the reason Warriors QQ'd about the changes to LW was because we were given nothing to compensate for its loss. It wasn't made into a leach like VM/FB, we didn't gain utility elsewhere, and most dramatic of all, healing wasn't changed to compensate. My belief is that presently, heals are balanced around the presumption that LW can exist. As such, they are over tuned when it's not present. LW being clensable directly leads to healing being over tuned once again. If LW is going to be changed, whether it's removed, made clensable, reduced %, made into a purgable buff or something else entirely ... healing would need to be adjusted to compensate for the new realities. This to me is the biggest balance issue around any modification to LW. (which for the record I'm not against)

Wouldn't rogues be making this argument for VM/FB? And why don't mages complain about this?
LW is over the top, considering the warriors damage output atm, it's like trying to save a sinking boat with teaspoons.
If LW was made into something exactly like VM/FB (or at the very least toned down to say 30% or something) OR the damage output was adjusted, things would be far more reasonable.

[Eughe]

It kinda sounds like the belief is that people were not complaining about LW since forever.

LW has been a major subject for months, which prompted the first attempt of nerfing it.

[Solisto]

The reason it was reverted was because, as stated before, it is re-applied so often that it made very little difference, and the QQ-storm that came from warriors made it not worth the trouble.

[Jaff]

The reason it was reverted was because, as stated before, it is re-applied so often that it made very little difference, and the QQ-storm that came from warriors made it not worth the trouble.

Whats the CD on QQ-storm?

[Violacea]

Rogues and Warriors have no healing soul. They should both only have access to something like the 30s CD cleansable ability rogues get from the War PA tree. None of this aoe my debuff all over the place or 20% proc siphons. Fell Blades and VM would be nice if they were either assassin style procs that aid with very minor heals, or if they were just buffs more in tune with the soul. NB has damage reductions and a 50% heal, and MM has insane mobility. I don't know what 50% heal siphons coupled with debuffs are doing on them. It's just a balancing annoyance. Just wish the heal debuffs, if insisted to be kept, were made as sparingly usable as the rogues PvP PA debuff. That way if you debuff someone, it is a smart choice and you get to only pick 1 every 30s.

Or couple a heal debuff in with "Coda of Jeopardy" since it is already single target and a more appropriate ability for a bard. But that is just conflicting with the initial idea to clean up heal debuffs from the game and limit them greatly. Meh, I am a rogue and I think they are kinda dumb.

[Asteldian]

No they didn't.
The fact that it is passively applied makes it an incredibly powerful healing debuff already.
SO it being cleansable would have done absolutely nothing to the warrior calling in PvP.
Even more so because every single calling has access to healing debuffs. So even if you did fail to somehow apply LW, it wasn't a case of no one being able to re-apply it.

actually yeah, pretty much the reason wars qq'd and got LW back was because at the time wars were nothing more than LW *****es. the class in pvp was terrible,people seem to forget that.

nowadays Wars are powerful and LW could be nerfed. Hell, i would welcome it -PLEASE make my LW cleasnable like the other heal debuffs and give me 40% health return from your heals, sounds a win win to me. You get what you want and i get more healing from your clerics than i do my own

[Aguni]

actually yeah, pretty much the reason wars qq'd and got LW back was because at the time wars were nothing more than LW *****es. the class in pvp was terrible,people seem to forget that.

You still haven't countered the fac thtat LW is a passively applied healing debuff.
Just like how VM/FB are passively applied healing debuffs.

Let alone what is with this belief that the calling should be compensated for a change?
If rb/champ saw its burst lowered, why should a warrior be compensated? That would entirely defeat the purpose of a nerf.

Again,people such as yourself need to drop the idea that:
1. LW was a necessity to prevent healing from being overtuned. Other callings have passive/actively applied healing debuffs. So warriors weren't some magic solution to the healing problem.

2. That compensation needs to be made whenever a nerf is introduced. A nerf needs to serve its purpose, buffing a calling after nerfing them in one aspect or another completely defeats the purpose of that nerf. Such a thing should only occur if that nerf turns out to be so harsh that it destroys the callings capabilities in PvP. In that case, the nerf can be tuned back and something can be done.

LW becoming cleansable at the time, was nowhere near requiring compensation, and was an issue of entitlement, not a case of PvP balance.

nowadays Wars are powerful and LW could be nerfed. Hell, i would welcome it -PLEASE make my LW cleasnable like the other heal debuffs and give me 40% health return from your heals, sounds a win win to me. You get what you want and i get more healing from your clerics than i do my own

Again why?
What would be the point of causing a passively applied healing debuff to also have a siphon upon it?
Cleanses are not passive and they have a cooldown.
All that needs to occur for LW to be applied is a crit. Considering the capabilities of a warrior, this is extremely easy to do.

Passive healing debuffs gain their strength from being passive. Not from having a heal siphon. A heal siphon is just icing on the cake that should not even be present.
Unless of course you want to eat a VM nerf where AOE lowers the chances severely.

Nerfing does not mean you should receive a buff in another area. Otherwise, what is the point in nerfing anything?

Let alone I am still waiting to see any changes made to the mage calling so they aren't a complete waste of a slot in organized PvP.