You want Trion to close the gap between low rank and r50?

[TedO]

Since when does time investment = work? And no, they're not all "grinds." A grind is usually something very distinctly repetitive and lacking in fun - why else would it be called a grind? - that is pushed past to reach a state where fun can be had.


The basis of your argument rests on the idea that time investment and repetition is equivalent in concept to work, which is not true. Is Monopoly work? How about Yahtzee? Or Poker? They all involve time investment and repetition: When was the last time you heard them referred to as work or considered them similar to such?


I thought I just explained how SWG utilized the concept well for me. Not sure why you're tossing that into the mix to support your argument.

When I said, "Without referencing games that utilized the concept poorly, such as your DAoC example," I was talking about design components within such games, not the games themselves as a whole. Those games were successful because they also had components that were not like a "grind." And apparently because there is a crowd that has been suckered into thinking that happiness is just one step away if you stab enough knives into your eyeballs.

This is what people usually describe as the carrot on the stick. How many people do you think actually enjoy chasing the stick? They're just interested in the carrot. If you place the focus on the stick chasing instead, suddenly the carrot is just something to look forward to, not a daunting goal to reach. What do you think one of the key reasons is for so many people leaving one MMO and going to another? Because there is either no more carrot to reach or the process to obtain the carrot is uninteresting.

It's a very simple concept that I'm talking about, which I described in a previous post: Enjoyable gameplay. You can utilize the concept while including time investment and repetition. You just need to do it correctly. Thinking that boring or obnoxious gameplay is a genre staple is one of the reasons why games fail.

Grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. The most common usage is in the context of MMORPGs like Final Fantasy XI, World of Warcraft, Tibia, or Lineage in which it is often necessary for a character to repeatedly kill AI-controlled monsters, using basically the same strategy over again to advance their character level to be able to access newer content. MUDs, generally sharing much of the same gameplay as MMORPGs, encounter the same problem. Grinding may be required by some games to unlock additional features.

The only difference between work and play is the attitude towards how its taken.

[Ajax1114]

Nobody said you had to put in that much effort....if you want to remain mediocre, by all means, go ahead.

I'm not sure what you're going for here, other than trying to seize an opportunity to boost your own PvP ego.

[dpser]

The only difference between work and play is the attitude towards how its taken.

This is a point worth emphasizing. If the time spent playing isn't fun and rewarding in and of itself, and you are "grinding" or otherwise spending a lot of time doing something you dislike, then your time is probably better spent doing something else.

[Oblivion333]

This is a point worth emphasizing. If the time spent playing isn't fun and rewarding in and of itself, and you are "grinding" or otherwise spending a lot of time doing something you dislike, then your time is probably better spent doing something else.

Very true but if it is a chore that has to be done in order to get your gear, weapons, items, etc. sometimes it sucks up the fun..........BUT.............grinding is part of the culture in this game. I'm not looking forward to the expansion to level to 60 when it comes out but I will do it because I have to.

It is a forced goal that forces players to grind. Although it may not be fun, players need to man/woman up and deal with it. And as dpser said, "...your time is probably better spent doing something else".

[saboikie]

Very true but if it is a chore ... sometimes it sucks up the fun..........BUT.............grinding is part of the culture in this game. "...your time is probably better spent doing something else".

This is all very true, and unfortunately (imho) a huge barrier for people with limited time to get deeply invested in games like RIFT.

Generally an activity done for relaxation or recreation has FUN as a big factor. It is not fun to be so disadvantaged for so long. If the answer is "go do something else if you don't like it", well, sure, I guess.
Will the genre grow?

[Kyera]

Will the genre grow?

It has, hasn't it?

Besides, if you change the genre too much, it's no longer the genre.

[HannonHellbringer]

This is all very true, and unfortunately (imho) a huge barrier for people with limited time to get deeply invested in games like RIFT.

Generally an activity done for relaxation or recreation has FUN as a big factor. It is not fun to be so disadvantaged for so long. If the answer is "go do something else if you don't like it", well, sure, I guess.
Will the genre grow?

Also, on the flipside to that. If the game is balanced too much to the casuals, then the hardcore progressive players get totally screwed over. These players look for challenge and a long path to make their rewards worth the effort they've put out. Lately, everything has become pretty easy and yet people are still complaining on both sides of raiding and pvp. This is how games get dumbed down and stupid easy and in the end, this is what kills games.

[Cygfa]

Also, on the flipside to that. If the game is balanced too much to the casuals, then the hardcore progressive players get totally screwed over. These players look for challenge and a long path to make their rewards worth the effort they've put out. Lately, everything has become pretty easy and yet people are still complaining on both sides of raiding and pvp. This is how games get dumbed down and stupid easy and in the end, this is what kills games.

yep. solution: ranked pvp

[saboikie]

... then the hardcore progressive players get totally screwed over. These players look for challenge and a long path to make their rewards worth the effort they've put out....

HH, just explain this to me please. Challenge can have different meanings here:
- Is it the gear 'carrot' that motivates these types of "hardcore" players (because the like to "achieve" higher levels of gear, etc.)? i.e. the challenge of getting better and better as the gear gets better and better
- Or is it the challenge of playing others? i would think that if it is purely about the challenge of playing someone else for the thrill and satisfaction of beating them, veterans would welcome new players, as it would mean fresh challenges and new people to fight. If you have to wait weeks/months for those truly dedicated grinders to join the top ranks, it can be a pretty small stage to perform on. Or is that the appeal?

Kyera - are you certain of that statement?
In terms of PVP, my impression here (RIFT), and other games is that there is a growing discontent with the gear grind/progression model, and I have read about guilds falling apart, dying off, leaving the game, etc, etc. for months now on these forums. I see that you are a traditionalist (being Canadian and all I can understand that), but if you keep on doing as you've always done, you'll always get the same outcomes. That seems to translate into transitional populations, discontent, and always looking for the next bright thing.
Maybe a change will be as good as a holiday, eh?

[TedO]

HH, just explain this to me please. Challenge can have different meanings here:
- Is it the gear 'carrot' that motivates these types of "hardcore" players (because the like to "achieve" higher levels of gear, etc.)? i.e. the challenge of getting better and better as the gear gets better and better
- Or is it the challenge of playing others? i would think that if it is purely about the challenge of playing someone else for the thrill and satisfaction of beating them, veterans would welcome new players, as it would mean fresh challenges and new people to fight. If you have to wait weeks/months for those truly dedicated grinders to join the top ranks, it can be a pretty small stage to perform on. Or is that the appeal?

Kyera - are you certain of that statement?
In terms of PVP, my impression here (RIFT), and other games is that there is a growing discontent with the gear grind/progression model, and I have read about guilds falling apart, dying off, leaving the game, etc, etc. for months now on these forums. I see that you are a traditionalist (being Canadian and all I can understand that), but if you keep on doing as you've always done, you'll always get the same outcomes. That seems to translate into transitional populations, discontent, and always looking for the next bright thing.
Maybe a change will be as good as a holiday, eh?

There is actually 2 schools of thought in MMOs and how PvP should be progressed, there is the "GW" school of absolute gear parity and Ranked progression, and there is the "WoW/Rift" model of gear progression as a basis. My personal preference would be gear parity with rankings being relevent. However as we are playing Rift, gear is the carrot, so you can't seperate one from the other specific to this game.

Many of the primarily PvP only guilds has left because if you research, you will find, many are of the "GW" school, where being competitive is more rlevent to skill based PvP as opposed to gear, and many of the PvP only guilds are more along that line of thinking.

Due to Rift accomodating a broad spectrum of players, Rift does many things well, but it will never do anything the best, PvP here is diluted for the masses

[Cygfa]

HH, just explain this to me please. Challenge can have different meanings here:
- Is it the gear 'carrot' that motivates these types of "hardcore" players (because the like to "achieve" higher levels of gear, etc.)? i.e. the challenge of getting better and better as the gear gets better and better
- Or is it the challenge of playing others? i would think that if it is purely about the challenge of playing someone else for the thrill and satisfaction of beating them, veterans would welcome new players, as it would mean fresh challenges and new people to fight. If you have to wait weeks/months for those truly dedicated grinders to join the top ranks, it can be a pretty small stage to perform on. Or is that the appeal?

Kyera - are you certain of that statement?
In terms of PVP, my impression here (RIFT), and other games is that there is a growing discontent with the gear grind/progression model, and I have read about guilds falling apart, dying off, leaving the game, etc, etc. for months now on these forums. I see that you are a traditionalist (being Canadian and all I can understand that), but if you keep on doing as you've always done, you'll always get the same outcomes. That seems to translate into transitional populations, discontent, and always looking for the next bright thing.
Maybe a change will be as good as a holiday, eh?

I fully agree with you, but don't bring Canada into this

[saboikie]

I am Canadian, and know how we feel about change.