really bad pvp system

[HannonHellbringer]

You and I have been down this road before on the PTS thread so you probably know what I'm gonna say.

You aren't thinking of the bigger picture yourself. Many people look at just a detail to suit their own arguments but don't try to problem solve. What is the problem? Gear. How do you solve it? You give everyone gear and allow them to progress as they do now. However in a PVP environement you move all those stats up to a central number, its basically upwards gear scaling. This accomplishes two things. It increases TTK allowing for more skill based gameplay, it also allows for meaningful open world pvp but still keeping competitive PVP intact and allowing TRUE skill based gameplay. You solve the problem with PVE gear by making PVP base stats different than PVE stats ensuring they aren't used in PVE.

Let me break this down. A new 50 player decides he wants to play Library of the Runemasters. When he hits 50 he is given a set of the basic rank pvp gear in the mail. This cache includes gear for any possible spec for his class. He selects his weapons, armors, runes and sigils. All of these items have PVP stats and therefore will be ineffective in PVE. As this new player plays he accumulates favor and he buys new pvp sets. These pvp sets work just like they do now. In your character tab you have a "pvp set" of gear. The current threshold for gear is scaling based on the current top tier of gear +5% (statwise). This will keep moving forward as new tiers are added to be sure people are always scaled up. When you are engaged in open world pvp it automatically flips to this pvp gear set once pvp has been triggered. Afterwards you can go in and flip back to your pve gear.

So the big question is what is the impetus to level if everyone is the same in PVP? Well I propose a ability gain system from prestige. Similar to what DAOC did. Reduce the number of Prestige Ranks to 10. Each rank up you have a pool of abilities to choose from based on your classes souls. These abilities all have long cooldowns (5+ minutes) so they won't affect the overall outcome of the match but are cool highly useful situational abilities. These abilities would all have a shared cooldown so no matter how many you accumulate you can't become godlike from having to many of them.

This is not a simple change, but for an expansion this is easily doable and something Trion really needs to move towards for the overall health of the game.

Khelendross, my arch enemy! lol

I see our point, the only thing I am trying to do is not give ideas that will force a total restructuring of the pvp system and then possibly isolate players from it. Would I like a balanced pvp, sure, everyone should. I also like the gear system because, to me, it adds flavor and max ranked max gear battles are WAY fun. I miss open world, structured pvp. Used to fight on that long wooden bridge in IPP, once fight a 20v20 on that. it was funny watching wardens pushing people off.

Way I see it, gear, class, senario, situation should not stop a player from doing good. A lot of players have gone through it and are now sitting at max rank wanting more difficult pvp, I even hear people wanting relic pvp gear, far mor than I hear people wanting gear gone. Point is that unless Trion changes it in the expac, I don't see it changing from a gear based pvp so we need to figure out ways to help LOWER the disparity and in the end create more DIFFICULT pvp with in a max ranked, max geared bracket or something, that would be the best place to implement relic pvp gear, but it has to be difficult to the point that it makes Raid dance stepping look silly. That and the relic gear should not be put into normal queue or raids...

[HannonHellbringer]

Do what I do, pull them into your barrel. I take them out of their setup element, I do this by a tank pull but I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to force the cab out of their little traps. Make sure to cleanse if you got it as well, and spread yourself from a crowd but stay within healing range. LoS is your best friend and over all is probably your best defense.

I meant sab btw : )

[Wawer]

If you're dying to Sabs, you should really be rethinking how you play. Sabs don't even have a healing debuff.

If you're dying to Assassins.. Uh, lol.

All rogue calling has heal debuff since it is found in their PvP PA.
However I have yet to see anyone running in PvE gear using it
Why bother?

[Zaros]

All rogue calling has heal debuff since it is found in their PvP PA.
However I have yet to see anyone running in PvE gear using it
Why bother?

If a healer dies because of that healing debuff, that healer is bad.

[Credo]

Same.

Its really sad to me that people think Gear Based Progression is what PVP in a MMO is all about. Sad. What have MMO's come to?

DAOC PvP required you to be templated....

[Credo]

This, in DAoC i would make fresh level 50 toons with ML0 and CL0 and go SOLO into NF and kill people Rank 10+ all the time. Think you can do that in Rift? GL with that man.

The PvP is garbage and to the people who say you need to stand the grind and be a punching bag for a few weeks/months (depending on your play time) are stupid because once you reach max gear you will still be playing an unbalanced game not worth your time.

You could only do that in DAOC if you picked the right class/race combo, templated out your character in all of the best gear, and only ran into the classes you countered. That is unless you were playing one of the several classes that were only countered by the same class *cough* Vampiir *cough*
I loved DAOC, but it was imbalanced more than Rift ever has been and was just as dependent on gear as this game is. It's pretty dumbed down now, but go out into OLD Frontiers in crap gear and get eaten alive. Y'all are acting like I can log on, make a Briton Pally, slap some low level crafted gear with no gems on it, and hop out into NF like Heman. Quit with the crap.

[Wawer]

If a healer dies because of that healing debuff, that healer is bad.

So everyone stop attacking the healer after using heal debuff on him ?
Because that pretty much the only reason healer don't die.
You do know that heal debuff can be covered by stacks and stacks of debuff/dots so he can't clean it off effectively.

[kronor]

sooo...if I do put up with this crap my reward is to gank others...thats pvp is it? I'll pass thanks.

When you get good gear, you learn who are the good players and who are the players being carried by gear. Once your r40 its rare but you can have balanced wfs which go the distance, unfortunately these are few and far between

[Khelendross]

You could only do that in DAOC if you picked the right class/race combo, templated out your character in all of the best gear, and only ran into the classes you countered. That is unless you were playing one of the several classes that were only countered by the same class *cough* Vampiir *cough*
I loved DAOC, but it was imbalanced more than Rift ever has been and was just as dependent on gear as this game is. It's pretty dumbed down now, but go out into OLD Frontiers in crap gear and get eaten alive. Y'all are acting like I can log on, make a Briton Pally, slap some low level crafted gear with no gems on it, and hop out into NF like Heman. Quit with the crap.

I played DAOC for 7 years. In those 7 years I played you never had to be templated to be effective. If you thought that you were quite simply, bad. Sorry to say.

[Antigonos]

perhaps trion should do one warfront for qqers where anyone gets the same gear level, then they can open up a new thread with new qq and excuses for them being just bad players.

[Mako482]

You could only do that in DAOC if you picked the right class/race combo, templated out your character in all of the best gear, and only ran into the classes you countered. That is unless you were playing one of the several classes that were only countered by the same class *cough* Vampiir *cough*
I loved DAOC, but it was imbalanced more than Rift ever has been and was just as dependent on gear as this game is. It's pretty dumbed down now, but go out into OLD Frontiers in crap gear and get eaten alive. Y'all are acting like I can log on, make a Briton Pally, slap some low level crafted gear with no gems on it, and hop out into NF like Heman. Quit with the crap.

You mentioned Vampiir crap......that is NOT Daoc. The true Daoc most people refer to was pre-ToA. Before ToA Daoc was not at all gear based. Everyone could get the same crafted gear and gems easily with a little money. No need to raid for dozens of hours.

There was imbalance here and there but not on the grand scale Rift has. Daoc was pvp first, and the classes were balanced solely for pvp.

[Mako482]

perhaps trion should do one warfront for qqers where anyone gets the same gear level, then they can open up a new thread with new qq and excuses for them being just bad players.

Don't worry, pretty soon we "qqers" will be moving on to the real pvp game where they actually get that people want true pvp, not a gear contest. You stay here and play your carebear pvp. That's right, I called you a carebear and Rift is most certainly carebear easymode pvp, all you need to do is put in the time to get there. If you think anything different you are just solidifying that fact.

Telling people who get killed in wf's in 2 seconds it is not the gear but rather they are bad players just proves what an imbecile you are.

[Asteldian]

Don't worry, pretty soon we "qqers" will be moving on to the real pvp game where they actually get that people want true pvp, not a gear contest. You stay here and play your carebear pvp. That's right, I called you a carebear and Rift is most certainly carebear easymode pvp, all you need to do is put in the time to get there. If you think anything different you are just solidifying that fact.

Telling people who get killed in wf's in 2 seconds it is not the gear but rather they are bad players just proves what an imbecile you are.

Sure gear plays a part but unless you are a warrior then if you are nothing more than a punching bag dying in 2 seconds then you need to face the fact that YOU are a big part of the problem. There are alot of builds and playstyles that can be very effective and sway the battle for your team and if you refuse to accept that then fine, complain the game is bad then move to gw2 and complain about the flaws there.

As for the issue of pve relics, the solution is fairly simple - pve weapons have more hit AND the relic has more damage so it is far superior. Sadly the hit is not being properly addressed, but damagewise just significantly boost the vengeance on PvP weapons to have it max or exceed the relics DPS.
Pve players can't complain that pvpers weapons are too good for pve meanwhile the superior pve weapons are no longer superior in pvp

[Khelendross]

Sure gear plays a part but unless you are a warrior then if you are nothing more than a punching bag dying in 2 seconds then you need to face the fact that YOU are a big part of the problem. There are alot of builds and playstyles that can be very effective and sway the battle for your team and if you refuse to accept that then fine, complain the game is bad then move to gw2 and complain about the flaws there.

As for the issue of pve relics, the solution is fairly simple - pve weapons have more hit AND the relic has more damage so it is far superior. Sadly the hit is not being properly addressed, but damagewise just significantly boost the vengeance on PvP weapons to have it max or exceed the relics DPS.
Pve players can't complain that pvpers weapons are too good for pve meanwhile the superior pve weapons are no longer superior in pvp

Yea me and Matt (from RiftOvercast) did alot of warfronts last night. He is Rank 14 warrior, I'm rank 28 Sab. In all the warfronts me and him were in the top 3 (KB's and Total damage). In one case he outdamaged me (we lost that one though). You don't need more than basic gear to be effective if you are good and your spec is solid. However you will still get blown the heck up. He was dying ALOT. And thats probably one of the biggest differences. Likewise if he runs up against someone who is truely good then he's gonna get owned as a lower rank player. Gear is never as big of a factor as the forum whiners make it out to be.

[Kyera]

You could only do that in DAOC if you picked the right class/race combo, templated out your character in all of the best gear, and only ran into the classes you countered. That is unless you were playing one of the several classes that were only countered by the same class *cough* Vampiir *cough*
I loved DAOC, but it was imbalanced more than Rift ever has been and was just as dependent on gear as this game is. It's pretty dumbed down now, but go out into OLD Frontiers in crap gear and get eaten alive. Y'all are acting like I can log on, make a Briton Pally, slap some low level crafted gear with no gems on it, and hop out into NF like Heman. Quit with the crap.

DAoC required you to get templated, but there was no gear-driven progression mechanism. You got your template, without any PvP required, and you were r2o in PvP. The progression came in the form of RAs, so yes, it was a bit painful until you hit about P4/P5, but that wasn't an incredibly grind.

At this point in the game's life, considering that all that's left are likely the seasoned stalwarts who won't quit playing, yeah, a new player is probably going to get eaten alive, especially if they don't do the required pre-PvP gearing/templating (which, honestly, was not as big a time sync), at least until they grind up some RR. When the game was a mite more active -- and yes, even during the ToA period so many people cry about incessantly -- you could roll out as a fresh, templated 50 and do damage (not as much as you could with some rank behind you, so there is certainly a progression element, but it was a thing that could be done). I mean, ****, I killed people 1v2 on a shield valkyrie, and this was before valks got healing and all the other fun stuff.

Love the buried qq about class balance in that first paragraph -- not that DAoC was ever, EVER balanced around 1v1 (nor should games with a focus on group-or-larger gameplay), but you sure as **** had plenty of options to be viable in plenty of 1v1 situations. Yeah, sometimes you'd run into something that would just bone you -- I couldn't deal with bonedancers 1v1 -- but you had a fair shot against most opposition. Just don't try to go out soloing on an RR1 animist.