Max rank Rated pvp, good or bad idea?

[spaceboots]

Two points:

- Giving the best PvPers items to make them even better at PvP makes no sense.
- Rating should use a Trueskill-like system, where the only variables tracked by the system are wins, losses, and quality of opponents.

Giving good pvp players best gear makes perfect sense. With the rating system they can continue to fight evenly with their equalizer gear.

And in open world and nonranked matches I can continue to be the mouth breathing rpg player I want to be, min max my gear, and smash people less geared than me.

[HannonHellbringer]

Someone brought up that it was an arena pvp style of pvp. It sort of is, but I think starting it with the same game modes for now and testing the waters is best so the matches would be, for example, Codex, but instead of 15 mix ranked players it will only be 15 P50 players fighting out to be number 1 in ratings.

The style of the game doesn't need to change, for now, but we need FAR MORE DIFFICULT PVP.

[jaal]

Someone brought up that it was an arena pvp style of pvp. It sort of is, but I think starting it with the same game modes for now and testing the waters is best so the matches would be, for example, Codex, but instead of 15 mix ranked players it will only be 15 P50 players fighting out to be number 1 in ratings.

The style of the game doesn't need to change, for now, but we need FAR MORE DIFFICULT PVP.

I think you missed my post on the first page:

If you want competetive PvP you would remove gear. So your idea is to create a bracket for the BEST PvPers and only if you maintain a certain kill/death ration can you stay in that bracket. But then you want to give the best in that bracket better weapons, now if a new player is getting into that bracket they are coming against players with better weapons than them, how are they meant to stay there? Furthermore the People with relics no longer need skill because they are fighting against less geared players.

Giving people better gear isnt going to make PvP competetive. Playing with the same gear is. If you still want a gear grind then fine, put all r40's in the same match.

[HannonHellbringer]

I think you missed my post on the first page:

If you want competetive PvP you would remove gear. So your idea is to create a bracket for the BEST PvPers and only if you maintain a certain kill/death ration can you stay in that bracket. But then you want to give the best in that bracket better weapons, now if a new player is getting into that bracket they are coming against players with better weapons than them, how are they meant to stay there? Furthermore the People with relics no longer need skill because they are fighting against less geared players.

Giving people better gear isnt going to make PvP competetive. Playing with the same gear is. If you still want a gear grind then fine, put all r40's in the same match.

/sigh

You will not be removed from the bracket if your at a low rating. It is an option IF you want to be there, but making it highly competitive and the only way to keep your rating high is to stay in the bracket, it will control the use of this pvp relic set from being used in the lower brackets and raids. True you will not get relic gear when you start in this bracket, but you start earning it soon after as long as you continue doing well and the disparity will be low since the only a very small percentage of the top player will even have a full set.

Removing gear from pvp is the worst mistake you can do in a gear progression game, how do you think it will effect open world pvp? Did you even think about that? At this point raidershave the best gear if pvp gear was removed then raiders would just rolfstomp pvpers with out breaking a sweat. The gear is there for a reason and there are hard core players that are looking for a real challenge, if you don't want it then you don't have to queue for this bracket, but that is the point, it gives you the option, but keeps the two different pvp styles seperate. In theory, a full pvp relic player will not even step into the normal queue for fear that his/her gear will be stripped from him/her if they remain out of their bracket for to long, maybe even put a pentalty for every match they step into that is not ranked same with raids. Everytime they step into a regular queue they actually take a hit to their ratings. This will further keep them out of the regular queue once they reach a high rating.

[jaal]

/sigh

You will not be removed from the bracket if your at a low rating. It is an option IF you want to be there, but making it highly competitive and the only way to keep your rating high is to stay in the bracket, it will control the use of this pvp relic set from being used in the lower brackets and raids. True you will not get relic gear when you start in this bracket, but you start earning it soon after as long as you continue doing well and the disparity will be low since the only a very small percentage of the top player will even have a full set.

Removing gear from pvp is the worst mistake you can do in a gear progression game, how do you think it will effect open world pvp? Did you even think about that? At this point raidershave the best gear if pvp gear was removed then raiders would just rolfstomp pvpers with out breaking a sweat. The gear is there for a reason and there are hard core players that are looking for a real challenge, if you don't want it then you don't have to queue for this bracket, but that is the point, it gives you the option, but keeps the two different pvp styles seperate. In theory, a full pvp relic player will not even step into the normal queue for fear that his/her gear will be stripped from him/her if they remain out of their bracket for to long, maybe even put a pentalty for every match they step into that is not ranked same with raids. Everytime they step into a regular queue they actually take a hit to their ratings. This will further keep them out of the regular queue once they reach a high rating.

/sigh

I covered both your points. 1 make normalised gear only apply to the competetive matches. 2. Gear is normalised so doesnt matter what you are wearing its all the same

And then back to your point, im not entirely sure what your definition of "competitive" is. having a competitive WF where spome players are better geared than others?

Examples of what you are proposing:
Making prestige gains bases on K/D ratio for ALL WF, so unless a rank 1 gets good enough K/D then they cant gain prestige.. not going to happen when they have to play against r40's

Making the goal posts smaller for the top team in the premier league and the team they are playing against smaller (soccer)

Making the hoop higher for the top NBA team and the hoop they are trying to score in lower

Your definition of "Competitive" is being able to gain an edge on the opponent outside of skill. Sure you need skill to get there in the first place but then once you have got it, how is anyone meant to take it off you / get to the same level as you. Two players face off with 1 player being 5% better than the other but without relic weapons. The guy with better gear wins and thus the other player is denied the rating boost even though he is better, other guy gets to keep relic weapons.

I think a Competitive system should be put in, but not one that is just going to recreate our current system where there is gear gap!

[HannonHellbringer]

/sigh

I covered both your points. 1 make normalised gear only apply to the competetive matches. 2. Gear is normalised so doesnt matter what you are wearing its all the same

And then back to your point, im not entirely sure what your definition of "competitive" is. having a competitive WF where spome players are better geared than others?

Examples of what you are proposing:
Making prestige gains bases on K/D ratio for ALL WF, so unless a rank 1 gets good enough K/D then they cant gain prestige.. not going to happen when they have to play against r40's

Making the goal posts smaller for the top team in the premier league and the team they are playing against smaller (soccer)

Making the hoop higher for the top NBA team and the hoop they are trying to score in lower

Your definition of "Competitive" is being able to gain an edge on the opponent outside of skill. Sure you need skill to get there in the first place but then once you have got it, how is anyone meant to take it off you / get to the same level as you. Two players face off with 1 player being 5% better than the other but without relic weapons. The guy with better gear wins and thus the other player is denied the rating boost even though he is better, other guy gets to keep relic weapons.

I think a Competitive system should be put in, but not one that is just going to recreate our current system where there is gear gap!

OMG, the gap isn't good enough to make a huge difference. Your blowing this WAY out of proportion. the difference between the the rank 50 gear and the relic gear is by only 1, one, ONE SET, that you earn through out your time playing in this bracket. so a mid rating player will have about half the gear and a top rated player will have the full set. The diffeence will be miniscule and a full rated player will be targeted A LOT because hurting his kill/death ration can hurt his rating and thus put someone else on top. To say that one top rated full relic geared pvper against a half relic geared player is a glaring difference is laughable and if played correctly a newcommer to the bracket can easily cut throat his way up to some gear.

This whole, "Lets play on even grounds..." crap is boring and dull, I want to tear down the best and take their spot then I want to be challenged to keep it, because i know others want me out of that spot so I must be prepared to fight tooth and nail to keep it. Your proposal only dulls the game to the same repetitive crap that most FPS' failed at and to take away whatever rewards people have already earned. We need challenge, we need flare, we need a hellish styled pvp that is almost like every man/woman for themselves.

[Xillean]

The best of the best who compete deserve the best possible gear, this is no different to raiders getting the best gear for pve. People compete and want challenging content to be the best and be rewarded with the best. Since its optional to do I think its a fairly good idea Hannon. Just like pve there should be a high end pvp bracket were the best try to defeat each other. Pve has raids and those who do them are the best of the best in pve, this can be the pvp version. Warfronts and Conquest can be the pvp version of dungeons and this new rated bracket can be the pvpers version of raids.

I think this could be the first steps of giving us pvpers a challenging method to obtain relic pvp gear and anything that leads us to that is a plus in my book.

[HannonHellbringer]

Alright guys and gals, I'm heading out or a bit. Don't be affraid to send me a private message if you have any ideas, and Jaal you to if you want to continue our debate ; )

[Aguni]

It does sound interesting,but maybe it might be wiser just to create a separate bracket that max rank people can go. No need for gear, and if there is gear, it shouldn't be a massive upgrade.
I don't think it would be wise to have people lose gear either.

*shudders as he remembers de-leveling in Final Fantasy*

[Meina]

The best of the best who compete deserve the best possible gear, this is no different to raiders getting the best gear for pve. People compete and want challenging content to be the best and be rewarded with the best. Since its optional to do I think its a fairly good idea Hannon. Just like pve there should be a high end pvp bracket were the best try to defeat each other. Pve has raids and those who do them are the best of the best in pve, this can be the pvp version. Warfronts and Conquest can be the pvp version of dungeons and this new rated bracket can be the pvpers version of raids.

I think this could be the first steps of giving us pvpers a challenging method to obtain relic pvp gear and anything that leads us to that is a plus in my book.

PvP is very different from raiding.

Offering better gear to raiders who succeed gives them the edge against NPC mobs and the option to move up to a more difficult dungeon.

Offer better gear to the better PvP'ers gives them an advantage over other players.

NPC's will never complain about people getting better gear. Players will complain incessantly if a select few PvP'ers get gear that they feel they do not have access to.

I agree with some of the other posters. Rated play should be about skill, not gear and awarding even better gear for rated play only diminishes the roll skill makes in the contest.

My thoughts on a rated system...

1) This should be limited to premades only, even if the teams have a max of just 5 people. Larger teams would also be cool, but I see problems with keeping the queue populated if we require too many people per team.

I think we need premades for 2 reasons. First, it is amazingly difficult, if not impossible, to create a system that accurately gauges an individuals performance in a game like this. Thus we should gauge the performance on the team using a simple win / loss system. Second, I don't know about you, but I really don't want my rating to be dependent on a random team which may or may not be made up of complete idiots.

2) Rewards should be limited to titles, cosmetic upgrades, mounts and pets. Making rated play a requirement for the top level gear would alienate a large portion of the player base simply because they would feel, for whatever reason, they don't have access to the gear. Besides, if you're good enough to succeed in rated PvP, you don't need to crutch on gear.

In short, I'm all for a rated system if they a) do it right and b) don't make it so that people feel they are forced to do it.

[HannonHellbringer]

PvP is very different from raiding.

Offering better gear to raiders who succeed gives them the edge against NPC mobs and the option to move up to a more difficult dungeon.

Offer better gear to the better PvP'ers gives them an advantage over other players.

NPC's will never complain about people getting better gear. Players will complain incessantly if a select few PvP'ers get gear that they feel they do not have access to.

I agree with some of the other posters. Rated play should be about skill, not gear and awarding even better gear for rated play only diminishes the roll skill makes in the contest.

My thoughts on a rated system...

1) This should be limited to premades only, even if the teams have a max of just 5 people. Larger teams would also be cool, but I see problems with keeping the queue populated if we require too many people per team.

I think we need premades for 2 reasons. First, it is amazingly difficult, if not impossible, to create a system that accurately gauges an individuals performance in a game like this. Thus we should gauge the performance on the team using a simple win / loss system. Second, I don't know about you, but I really don't want my rating to be dependent on a random team which may or may not be made up of complete idiots.

2) Rewards should be limited to titles, cosmetic upgrades, mounts and pets. Making rated play a requirement for the top level gear would alienate a large portion of the player base simply because they would feel, for whatever reason, they don't have access to the gear. Besides, if you're good enough to succeed in rated PvP, you don't need to crutch on gear.

In short, I'm all for a rated system if they a) do it right and b) don't make it so that people feel they are forced to do it.

First I'd like to thank you all for posting your ideas and your opinions. Thank you!

Now, why is it that aiders are the only ones that get the good stuff? Don't give me, "They work harder at it..." Because this would make their raids look silly. IMO anyways. The whole game is based on gear and it would take a MASSIVE restructuring just to either get rid of it or rebalance the game and personally, something like this could make die hards work hard and continue to work hard even after earning gear.

As for a gear advantage over other players, raid gear already does that. If you haven't noticed Raid gear is a plague amongst pvpers and we've been dealing with it for far to long. Atleast in this case we are fighting for our own BiS pvp gear that will pretty much remain in pvp. The gear advantage will be spread out through out ONE SET of relic gear so as your rating goes up you earn a single piece here and there so that you do not have an over whelmig advantage over the people under you and those above you do not have an overwhelming advantage over you. As for those in full relic gear, they will be a serious target, kill them and hurt their kill death ratio too much and they lose rating and thus can lose their RELIC gear, not their p50 gear.

I dis agree with you on how the gear will deminish skill in the rated pvp bracket. That kind of reward will be a driving force for those that want it. I know I would fight tooth and nail to climb the ratings, find ways to kill my enemies to bring them down so I can move up. As it is right now, people only fight hard enough to get their gear and say screw it, or fight hard enough to get something even if its just a little, but in rated pvp there are penalties for slacking off, doing bad and afking. It is pvp with real risk, I know its a concept that is not well liked but for die hards it is something that makes the game SO much more exciting and far more challenging.

1. Trion I believe stated they will not do premade or 5v5 arenas. I do not think it should only be limited to premades, part of the risk and gamble is about working with a random team, BUT everyone will have atleast p50 gear and only ONE upgrade of relic gear is possible IF you are good enough, meaning that most players will only have bits and pieces so the matches won't be an overwhelming glare of imbalances. Also if your calling most the other players of rift idiots you probably aren't meant for team play anyways I'm sorry but that just uncalled for.

2. Gear is highly important in a gear based progression game. Fact is a lot of people as pvpers, feel like second class citizens because pvp gear is just lack luster and against raid gear in pvp it fails, badly. This is the PvP version of showing just how hard it is to be a pvper that pvp is not for the faint of heart, that it is vicious where you could be ontop one day and bottom of the barrel the next and vice versa. Adding only fluff will make people lose interest in this bracket because it offers nothing but useless crap, why have costumes when you can be wearing the very first full set of pvp relic gear. It is like a trophy of your success, enjoy it while you can because it most likely won't be there very long. This gear is completely optional, you don't have to join the bracket, and if the population feels alienated, I don't know what to say because pvp and pvpers can be rough so having think skin going into pvp is almost required and going into rated pvp should be no different.

People won't be forced into it, or atleast that is what is in my mind, those that want can stay in the normal queue and continue doing what they want, those looking for a larger challenge and want something to show for their hard work can go to the rated pvp and fight with everything they got to try and get this rare relic set.

[HannonHellbringer]

It does sound interesting,but maybe it might be wiser just to create a separate bracket that max rank people can go. No need for gear, and if there is gear, it shouldn't be a massive upgrade.
I don't think it would be wise to have people lose gear either.

*shudders as he remembers de-leveling in Final Fantasy*

I do not want a massive upgrade in gear, but it should rival relic gear on the raid side. It should be something that raids kinda get jealous over and make them second guess which content they want to play in. I see it more as a trophy but with benefits attached, something to help them through the focus fire they will surely get since people are going to want to knock their rating down.

As for losing gear, when people earn gear they only work hard enough to earn it then most say screw it, but if there is risk involved, they play smarter and work harder which can make for VERY interesting matches. The threat of losing gear is what will make players keep fighting and trying. Otherwise they lose interest and become apathetic.

[MannSeastone]

The best of the best who compete deserve the best possible gear.

In PvP, gear is a crutch and the best of the best need it the least.

Giving good pvp players best gear makes perfect sense. With the rating system they can continue to fight evenly with their equalizer gear.

They should just make PvP gear BiS for PvP. I heard the P50 weapons were pretty good.

The rating system should be about skill but also about keeping the gear controlled and keeping it, as much as possible, within the confines of this rated bracket. Have time matter is important so that EVERY thing counts, skill, wins, loses, kill/death ration, support, healing, I mean everything.

Again, the only variables necessary for good matchmaking are wins, losses, and quality of opponents. If you track in-match metrics than the high positions go to the people who are the best at manipulating the metrics. As an example, I'm #9 on total damage on Seastone cluster because I've been spamming out AOE, but I'm definitely not the 9th best DPS. Creating a system where you track every variable in my performance to get an estimate of my skill relative to other players is a complicated and potentially misleading endeavor.

[HannonHellbringer]

In PvP, gear is a crutch and the best of the best need it the least.


They should just make PvP gear BiS for PvP. I heard the P50 weapons were pretty good.


Again, the only variables necessary for good matchmaking are wins, losses, and quality of opponents. If you track in-match metrics than the high positions go to the people who are the best at manipulating the metrics. As an example, I'm #9 on total damage on Seastone cluster because I've been spamming out AOE, but I'm definitely not the 9th best DPS. Creating a system where you track every variable in my performance to get an estimate of my skill relative to other players is a complicated and potentially misleading endeavor.

Only real way to make PvP gear BiS is to either lock out Raid relic gear, which trion won't do, or giving us equal gear. Keeping the gear within the bracket will be control and anyone that steps into the bracket will be willing such a difficult style of pvp. Right now, pvp is bland and has no respect. Every day I listen to people mock it because of how pointless it is. This new bracket will turn that around and give a reward that shows just how good the player is because it will not be a cake walk to earn. Wins, losses are not exactly a good match making stat, there are plenty of players that are amazing players even on losing teams.

The relic gear is something that not everyone will be able to achieve, that is the point. Rated pvp is a leap above the normal instanced pvp that you see. It will be for die hard players who make pvp work no matter the classs, gear or situation. Players that don't see imbalance but see a challenge, players that don't see a gear difference, just an obsticle in their path to their own rewards.

Point is that without relic gear, there will not be balance between PvP and PvE, atleat in this pvpers get a chance at relic gear but it remains BiS for pvp and only in one portion of pvp. It is something that is far more challenging than what is currently out and is coming in 1.9, don't get me wrong conquest looks so fun, but honestly give me rated pvp with lower gear disparity but the ability to show off my rewards in the form of relic pvp gear.

[Meina]

First I'd like to thank you all for posting your ideas and your opinions. Thank you!

Now, why is it that aiders are the only ones that get the good stuff? Don't give me, "They work harder at it..." Because this would make their raids look silly. IMO anyways. The whole game is based on gear and it would take a MASSIVE restructuring just to either get rid of it or rebalance the game and personally, something like this could make die hards work hard and continue to work hard even after earning gear.

As for a gear advantage over other players, raid gear already does that. If you haven't noticed Raid gear is a plague amongst pvpers and we've been dealing with it for far to long. ...

Outside of the delay with the most recent PvP set, most of the "Raid gear is better" complaints were limited to a select few classes / roles. When you opt to use raid gear instead of PvP gear, you trade DPS output for a drop in survivability (i.e. less valor). This works in a some cases, such as marksman and "glass cannon" mage specs, which are designed around being able to avoid a fight / taking damage. But it doesn't work quite as well for frontline fighters, which need to soak up that damage.

Unless they throw out the valor system and retool the gear, this is going to happen. There is always some wash over between PvE and PvP gear, simply because of how the stats and the stat budgets work.

And just to make sure, I'm not saying they shouldn't release the p50 set of PvP gear, just that they should not make it exclusive based on a rating system.

... Atleast in this case we are fighting for our own BiS pvp gear that will pretty much remain in pvp. The gear advantage will be spread out through out ONE SET of relic gear so as your rating goes up you earn a single piece here and there so that you do not have an over whelmig advantage over the people under you and those above you do not have an overwhelming advantage over you. As for those in full relic gear, they will be a serious target, kill them and hurt their kill death ratio too much and they lose rating and thus can lose their RELIC gear, not their p50 gear.

What you are describing, basically, is WoW's pre cataclysm rating based gearing system. Outside of the select few, this system did nothing but promote discontent. It drove a rift through the PvP community (pun intended) that separated the haves and the have nots. Complaints about raid gear will be joined by complaints about 'rated' gear.

I dis agree with you on how the gear will deminish skill in the rated pvp bracket. That kind of reward will be a driving force for those that want it. I know I would fight tooth and nail to climb the ratings, find ways to kill my enemies to bring them down so I can move up.

You can do this without exclusive gear.

1. Trion I believe stated they will not do premade or 5v5 arenas. I do not think it should only be limited to premades, part of the risk and gamble is about working with a random team, BUT everyone will have atleast p50 gear and only ONE upgrade of relic gear is possible IF you are good enough, meaning that most players will only have bits and pieces so the matches won't be an overwhelming glare of imbalances.

As far as I know, Trion has said that Rift will not have / be an esport and they will not balance the game around arenas. I do not think they've said anything about rated WF's or 5v5 WF's.

As for having it be premades only, that's about the only way to effectively rate a person's PvP potential without creating a huge, convoluted, easily spoofable system for rating people, especially in this type of game.

Also if your calling most the other players of rift idiots you probably aren't meant for team play anyways I'm sorry but that just uncalled for.

That was not my intention, but be honest, you know there have been times when you've felt that your entire team has been up of herpaderps who couldn't find an objective if it fell on them.

2. Gear is highly important in a gear based progression game. Fact is a lot of people as pvpers, feel like second class citizens because pvp gear is just lack luster and against raid gear in pvp it fails, badly.

See above, and as much as I hate to say it, PvP'ers are second class citizens in these games. Cold hard fact.

This is the PvP version of showing just how hard it is to be a pvper that pvp is not for the faint of heart, that it is vicious where you could be ontop one day and bottom of the barrel the next and vice versa.

Again, you don't have to add exclusive gear to accomplish this.

Adding only fluff will make people lose interest in this bracket because it offers nothing but useless crap, why have costumes when you can be wearing the very first full set of pvp relic gear. It is like a trophy of your success, enjoy it while you can because it most likely won't be there very long. This gear is completely optional, you don't have to join the bracket, and if the population feels alienated, I don't know what to say because pvp and pvpers can be rough so having think skin going into pvp is almost required and going into rated pvp should be no different.

People won't be forced into it, or atleast that is what is in my mind, those that want can stay in the normal queue and continue doing what they want, those looking for a larger challenge and want something to show for their hard work can go to the rated pvp and fight with everything they got to try and get this rare relic set.

Let me clarify something. If the gear is only usable in rated play, as in it cannot be used anywhere else, then it becomes less of a problem. If it can be used in normal WF's and world PvP (which some people seem to think it should be) then there's a problem. That problem would be that if it can be used outside of rated play, then it does become "must have" gear. People will be forced to fight against that gear so people will feel like they are being forced to go get that gear.

I personally don't think you need to add a new set of gear for rated play though. Other non-game effecting trophies would serve the purpose just as well.