Should something be done about Rift Storm?

[Sebb]

One, who DOESN'T run 38/28? I have analyzed a lot of combat logs, and every Warrior I fear has at least 38 points in RB, and at least 26 points in Champion, based on the skills they are using. Or they're 51 Champion, but that's pretty rare -- the only Warrior on my cluster that seems to do that is Clannad.

And no, 38/28 should NOT hit like a 51 Pyro. They're a hybrid, so they should do Hybrid damage. A 38/28 should do a lot less damage than a 51 Champ. The fact is that they don't. A 38/28 Inquisicar does a LOT less damage than a 51 Inq. Same with a Cabicar. Why should Warrior hybrids deal damage equal to their dedicated brothers?

Hmm I'm on your cluster. I see very few 38/28s. I also know exactly what to look for.

And how the hell is 38/28 a hybrid? It's a pure dps spec. icar is hybrid. /stalker is hybrid. Riftchamp is not. Please go and read up on warrior souls.

[Kyera]

I should make something clear, since I'm not sure if people are getting the wrong vibe or thinking I'm crying about warriors in 1.8 or some ****. I'm also not advocating that this is the only change needed -- people saying "we need RW + PB because Squirrel" make me want to punch them in the teeth.

The problematic warrior builds in live Rift (from 1.0 to 1.8) are all tuned around the presence of Lingering Wounds and/or Rift Walk + Planar Blade. People ignore other builds because they suck, and every build revolves around getting one or both of these abilities and pairing them with whichever other spec is riding high in this balance cycle.

Trion buffs a tree (which may be RB or Champ, or it may not), it gets paired with one or both of these abilities, the build is busted/OP (because it's hard to escape from and hard to heal through), people lose their ****ing minds on the forums, Trion overnerfs the relevant tree(s) into the dirt but leave these two abilities intact, warriors swap to alts and cry a bunch on the forums, and a few cycles later Trion buffs some other tree that immediately gets paired with RB or Champ again and results in tears on the forums. Mages have certainly gone through the same cycle several times, though most prominently early in Rift's life cycle (because nobody figured that maybe the red orb was the problem).

I want to see these two abilities changed because they're the things that take warriors from challenging and fearsome opponents to exceedingly frustrating to deal with, and that's the step that makes people fly onto the forums and lose their ****. If these were out of the picture (or at least toned down) it would certainly improve the viability of the other trees, and maybe even offensive support tank builds, and we might break the overnerf/buff cycle.

And let's be honest -- people don't play the other trees with the reasoning that it's because they have 'terrible mobility', but all that really means is 'I can't autonomously stay on someone's bacon despite their best efforts to get distance'.

[Sebb]

And let's be honest -- people don't play the other trees with the reasoning that it's because they have 'terrible mobility', but all that really means is 'I can't autonomously stay on someone's bacon despite their best efforts to get distance'.

Yes and no. The other problem, which you somewhat alluded to in your discussion of pairing with PB, is that you never do enough damage without it to justify the loss of ToT. The same thing I said to Zaros. Champion does not hit significantly harder than RB. So given the two options, you really don't have much of a choice. The dependence on PB - and it is a dependence - is directly correlated to the way DRs work, and the over abundance of CC. PB would not be needed if Leg Sweep was worth anything. Parachamp only worked in 1.3 and 1.6 because ranged damaged was substantial enough to make up for lack of melee TOT. Those were my only times when I was not some form of RB. Instead though, every single class can easily kite a non RB warrior.

PB can only be removed along with removal of a lot of the other CC and snare effects that it uses to combat it. This should go hand in hand with changes to bull rush/blitz/overrun and TOFR/RF/WS ranged damage penalty.

Oh, and since I'm done with this thread now... I don't really care if they do nerf RS. I'm sure they will since people are crying. Bads will still be a BT proc for me. I think a better change would be to set it as a 1 min cd.

[Zaros]

I don't think the solution is to remove RW or PB, it's just to tone down RB damage. RB should be a utility tree, something that allows you to maintain ToT, give you access to more CC, and minor boosts to damage. It's like Sebb said to Velkane--28/38 isn't a hybrid spec, its a full DPS build. It shouldn't be--RB ought to provide more utility to that spec, making it a hybrid, somewhat like Domi, Justi, or RS. 51 Champs should do significantly more damage than RBs.

Maybe Lingering Wounds should scale with points spent in Champion? Or RW's cooldown should scale with points spent in RB? That sounds like a better solution to me, on second thoughts.

[HannonHellbringer]

I don't think the solution is to remove RW or PB, it's just to tone down RB damage. RB should be a utility tree, something that allows you to maintain ToT, give you access to more CC, and minor boosts to damage. It's like Sebb said to Velkane--28/38 isn't a hybrid spec, its a full DPS build. It shouldn't be--RB ought to provide more utility to that spec, making it a hybrid, somewhat like Domi, Justi, or RS. 51 Champs should do significantly more damage than RBs.

Maybe Lingering Wounds should scale with points spent in Champion? Or RW's cooldown should scale with points spent in RB? That sounds like a better solution to me, on second thoughts.

It sounds kinda nice but I'd like to see more utility in RB. I know it has some cool stuff but if the idea is to remove some damage from it then it should offer more in the way of utility other wise it wont be worth going into since most of the good stuff is deep into the tree. If your saying it should act like dom then it should be able to cripple like dom or atleast have that sort of effect where the utility really shines.

I'm not sure that is needed though. A few tweaks and RB should be fine imo.

[Velkane]

It sounds kinda nice but I'd like to see more utility in RB. I know it has some cool stuff but if the idea is to remove some damage from it then it should offer more in the way of utility other wise it wont be worth going into since most of the good stuff is deep into the tree. If your saying it should act like dom then it should be able to cripple like dom or atleast have that sort of effect where the utility really shines.

I'm not sure that is needed though. A few tweaks and RB should be fine imo.

What more utility do you want? Windspear and Stonespear seem like plenty to me. Almost every time I die is due to Windspear, Stonespear + RB combo. Those three abilities not only cripple me, they pretty much guarantee my death. There's literally nothing I can do about it if my Break Free is on CD, and usually it is because some annoying Dom squirreled me 5 seconds earlier.

[HannonHellbringer]

What more utility do you want? Windspear and Stonespear seem like plenty to me. Almost every time I die is due to Windspear, Stonespear + RB combo. Those three abilities not only cripple me, they pretty much guarantee my death. There's literally nothing I can do about it if my Break Free is on CD, and usually it is because some annoying Dom squirreled me 5 seconds earlier.

I'm sure more can be added since everyone wants RS, planarblade, and riftwalk nerfed. If RB is to do lower damage then utility will need to go up or don't touch the suggested abilities for nerfing if your wantingh to nerf RB damage in general. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Point is that if you go heavy RB with the suggested changes, chances are you will not do enough damage to kill anything and since it is a squishy soul chances are it will be left out in the open and die fast. The utility will give it a fighting chance to be a far more team oriented soul, silencing multiple enemies, rooting enemies, but it doesn't have that flare that something like Dom has as far as team based utility where it can cripple multiple players or drain mana very quickly.

[Kyera]

Point is that if you go heavy RB with the suggested changes, chances are you will not do enough damage to kill anything and since it is a squishy soul chances are it will be left out in the open and die fast. The utility will give it a fighting chance to be a far more team oriented soul, silencing multiple enemies, rooting enemies, but it doesn't have that flare that something like Dom has as far as team based utility where it can cripple multiple players or drain mana very quickly.

So warriors will still end up with a soul that complements offensive and defensive builds with an assortment of utility, durability/power management tools, a trio of ranged snare/root abilities, crowd control that can be used either ST or AoE as they see fit, fairly solid elemental damage (at a slightly lower value than physical, but, for finishers, off-GCD), and a not-always but still frequently active charge that doubles as an extra break free (on a 25s or less cooldown)?

Sounds like a ****ty tree. Give it to my bard instead, please.

[Velkane]

I'm sure more can be added since everyone wants RS, planarblade, and riftwalk nerfed. If RB is to do lower damage then utility will need to go up or don't touch the suggested abilities for nerfing if your wantingh to nerf RB damage in general. You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Point is that if you go heavy RB with the suggested changes, chances are you will not do enough damage to kill anything and since it is a squishy soul chances are it will be left out in the open and die fast. The utility will give it a fighting chance to be a far more team oriented soul, silencing multiple enemies, rooting enemies, but it doesn't have that flare that something like Dom has as far as team based utility where it can cripple multiple players or drain mana very quickly.

What are the suggested changes, that makes you sure they won't be able to kill anything? Right now just about everything melts in front of a warrior with P36+ weapons and consumables applied. I think RB could suffer a 50% nerf and Warriors would still be doing fine. Rift Storm is an AoE -- what possible justification is there for an AoE ability to be the go-to ST finisher?
Everyone laughs at Sabs using AoEs for ST damage, MMs using Fanout for ST damage, Cabs using Tyranny for ST damage, and whatever Stormcallers do. Why is it the RB AoE is not only fantastic AoE, but ridiculous ST too? It just doesn't make sense.

Warriors should be using ST finishers to do ST damage. Not AoEs to massacre single targets.

[AzureCypher]

So just to point this out, all this math about rift storm refreshing planar blade and whatnot is nice, but is every single person forgetting they nerfed storm so that it would no longer trigger any of the blade buffs?
http://forums.riftgame.com/official-...2-5-12-eu.html

[Kyera]

So just to point this out, all this math about rift storm refreshing planar blade and whatnot is nice, but is every single person forgetting they nerfed storm so that it would no longer trigger any of the blade buffs?
http://forums.riftgame.com/official-...2-5-12-eu.html

I was under the impression that note was incorrect (or the implementation was bugged) and it was still triggering PB (but not BoEA or SB), but I guess I'll go test it.

[Kyera]

Okay, I was mixing them up. It still triggers BoEA, but not PB or SB. Mea culpa.

[Sebb]

What are the suggested changes, that makes you sure they won't be able to kill anything? Right now just about everything melts in front of a warrior with P36+ weapons and consumables applied. I think RB could suffer a 50% nerf and Warriors would still be doing fine. Rift Storm is an AoE -- what possible justification is there for an AoE ability to be the go-to ST finisher?
Everyone laughs at Sabs using AoEs for ST damage, MMs using Fanout for ST damage, Cabs using Tyranny for ST damage, and whatever Stormcallers do. Why is it the RB AoE is not only fantastic AoE, but ridiculous ST too? It just doesn't make sense.

Warriors should be using ST finishers to do ST damage. Not AoEs to massacre single targets.

Nobody laughs at sabs.... not sure if Srs. Personally I only use RS when there are 2 or more people on me. Had some fun times last night in PS popping it on groups of 5-8. I can't help but wonder about the people that complain about warriors., I walked out of PS last night with 25-30 KBs. At least 30% of those were from mages and rogues that tried to face tank me. It was just disgustingly bad play. If a melee is on you, you should be doing something to change that. If you don't, it's your fault for dying.

[Velkane]

Nobody laughs at sabs.... not sure if Srs.

I'm totally serious. I LOL in /say and /shout whenever some Sab starts throwing bombs at me when I'm nowhere near anyone else. A Sab does pretty terrible ST damage. They have no prayer in killing me solo. They're even worse than Clerics at DPSing single targets. They do amazing AoE damage, but it's only amazing if there's 3+ targets to hit. Unlike Rift Storm. That crap is scary against a single target, which is ridiculous.

Personally I only use RS when there are 2 or more people on me. Had some fun times last night in PS popping it on groups of 5-8. I can't help but wonder about the people that complain about warriors., I walked out of PS last night with 25-30 KBs. At least 30% of those were from mages and rogues that tried to face tank me. It was just disgustingly bad play. If a melee is on you, you should be doing something to change that. If you don't, it's your fault for dying.

Not every Mage is a Pyro or Dom. My understanding is that Mages simply have no choice but to facetank a warrior if they aren't 11 points into Pyro (for Flicker), or 20-ish points into Dom (for instant Squirrel). In PS, you are quite likely to find Mages that are not running those specs, in favor of AoE specs.

The same goes for Rogues. I suspect a lot of this "bad play" was done by people using specs that don't have escape tools, and instead have AoEs. The other classes don't get ridiculous AoE and mobility combined into one spec. That's just for Warriors.

[Antigonos]

playing a lot of warfronts lately with my rogue, it seems warriors are quite fine now. They hit like a truck but also die like a fly.

1vs1 vs. warriors are very close right now, many of thems we both die seems really well balanced now!