Twinks: An analogy.

[Enthusiast]

I am all for PvP that does not have gear in the equation. Or at least, with the upper limit of gear being simple to acquire. With arenas (i know, the a-word) with pre-formed guild teams, this issue doesn't tend to exist as both sides put effort in to max their stats or they don't compete at all; even with the limited sense of "gear" this is how it worked in City of Heroes arena matches. This registers more soundly as "PvP" in my mind, whereas warfronts and world PvP with huge gear disparities, non-PvP objectives, and random player compositions, is more like PvE with other players getting in your way. You get rewards even for doing poorly and there is no penalty for losing, unfortunately some people take losing far too seriously.

That said, the direction Trion has clearly gone and will not be changing anytime soon is for gear to matter just as much in PvP as in PvE. Proposing anything to change that is not likely to be productive. I would rather have another style of PvP (cough arenas) where gear is taken out of the equation.

You bring up a valid point. However I think conceptually Trion has gotten the objective based gameplay right. In the three maps I've played the design of their maps minimalizes spawn camping by giving several outs and holding relics gets increasingly harder as time passes. That's not really relevant but I thought I would point out what I am fond of.

Its when you throw twinks into the equation that everything becomes a mess. There is absolutely no chance that a level 10 can defeat a twinked level 19. Its not even close, even with bolstering. If this is the way they want it to be, what then is the point in even having a 10-19 bracket? This isn't exclusive to the 10-19 bracket, I'm just using it as an example.

Unfortunately, the twinks want the advantage over other players. The idea of balance is punishment to them. Arenas could be a solution but that requires participation by the twink community, which would be like trying to herd cats. I think it IS an option.

[Kyera]

For the sake of supporting my argument that people are too freaking lazy to get their kit in order, I just queued two warfronts on my level 33 crafting mule (the first one was finishing as I got in, so I only looked at two people, one of whom was in the second warfront, which was a 5v5).

My mule is geared up because I was using it to grind event currency quests; however, the last time I did this was at level 29, and she picked up four more levels as a result of completing crafting quests. She is, by my own definition, undergeared; gear is 4-7 levels below her level (except the bow, which is from the starter zone), is all crafted w/ no augments (so it's all green), she has an empty sigil and no accessories, and has no runes on anything.

I'm going to list her gear, to give you the format in which I will be listing everyone else's gear, and then I'll list the gear of the other six players I ran into.

L33 Warrior
Armor: L26 Helm (No Rune), L29 Shoulders (NR), L26 Chest (NR), L26 Gloves (NR), L29 Belt (NR), L29 Legs (NR), L29 Boots (NR)
Weapons/Accessories: L29 2H (NR), L3 Bow (NR), Empty Neck, Empty Ring, Empty Ring
Sigil: Three Slot Sigil - All slots empty.

-----

L37 Cleric
Armor: L27 Helm (NR), L29 Shoulders (NR), L32 Chest (NR), L29 Gloves (NR), L24 Belt (NR), L27 Legs (NR), L28 Boots (NR)
Weapons/Accessories: L35 Staff (NR), L33 Wand (NR), L33 Neck, L3 Ring, Empty Ring
Sigil: Three Slot Sigil - L10 Lesser, L10 Lesser, L16 Lesser

-----

L38 Rogue (this guy was in both)
Armor: L27 Helm (NR), L35 Shoulders (NR), L28 Chest (NR), L28 Gloves (NR), L28 Belt (NR), L30 PvP Legs (NR), L28 Boots (NR)
Weapons/Accessories: L33 Dagger, L32 Dagger, L38 Bow, Rune King Seal World Event Neck (so an alt), L18 Ring, L21 Ring
Sigil: Four Slot Sigil - L19 Lesser, L19 Lesser, L20 Lesser, Empty Slot

-----

L31 Warrior
Armor: L22 Helm (NR), L23 Shoulders (NR), L19 Chest (NR), L19 Gloves (NR), L23 Belt (NR), L23 PvP Legs (NR), L23 Boots (NR)
Weapons/Accessories: L23 2H, L17 Bow, L19 Neck (so an alt), L23 Ring, L23 Ring
Sigil: Two Slot Sigil - Current WE L12 Lesser, L7 Lesser

-----

L31 Rogue
Armor: L21 Helm (NR), Shoulders Empty, L16 Chest (NR), L12 Gloves (NR), L25 PvP Belt (NR), L25 PvP Legs (NR), L12 Boots (NR)
Weapons/Accessories: L17 Cleric Mace, L6 Cleric Mace, L22 Bow, Empty Neck, Empty Ring, Empty Ring
Sigil: Four Slot Sigil - Empty!

-----

L35 Mage
Armor: L33 Helm (NR), L30 Grape Shoulders (NR), L28 Chest (NR), L24 Gloves (NR), L24 Belt (NR), L33 PvP Legs (NR), L28 Boots (NR)
Weapons/Accessories: L15 RotF Staff, L19 Wand, L33 Neck, L33 Ring, L31 Ring
Sigil: Three Slot Sigil - L8 Lesser, L10 Lesser, Silverwood HoT Greater

-----

Equally as impressive as the lazy gearing was the fact that not a single player I looked at had a rune or other consumable on a piece of gear. Not even the ghetto pre-order/CE +Resist/+End runes.

P.S. While I was jotting down all of these details, one of these players started whining about twinks. Go figure.

[Misun]

You bring up a valid point. However I think conceptually Trion has gotten the objective based gameplay right. In the three maps I've played the design of their maps minimalizes spawn camping by giving several outs and holding relics gets increasingly harder as time passes. That's not really relevant but I thought I would point out what I am fond of.

Its when you throw twinks into the equation that everything becomes a mess. There is absolutely no chance that a level 10 can defeat a twinked level 19. Its not even close, even with bolstering. If this is the way they want it to be, what then is the point in even having a 10-19 bracket? This isn't exclusive to the 10-19 bracket, I'm just using it as an example.

Unfortunately, the twinks want the advantage over other players. The idea of balance is punishment to them. Arenas could be a solution but that requires participation by the twink community, which would be like trying to herd cats. I think it IS an option.

Just stop it already. You've made it quite clear to everyone that you do not feel the need to gear your own character..and you expect to be carried in wf's.

Regardless if a level 10 is "twinked" or geared or not..they will not beat a level 19, even if the level 19 was in crap green gear. The reason being is the level 19 has way more skills unlocked via their soul trees..and the level 10 has like 4 abilities.

So, you've changed your arguments a few times...first it was "unfair" or "cheating" via gear.

Now you've changed your argument to "a low level can't beat a higher level character"

Well duh.

Your arguments make zero sense and you come off as whining.

[tevikolady]

L31 Rogue
Armor: L21 Helm (NR), Shoulders Empty, L16 Chest (NR), L12 Gloves (NR), L25 PvP Belt (NR), L25 PvP Legs (NR), L12 Boots (NR)
Weapons/Accessories: L17 Cleric Mace, L6 Cleric Mace, L22 Bow, Empty Neck, Empty Ring, Empty Ring
Sigil: Four Slot Sigil - Empty!

This guy should tottally be owning that level 39 twink. I mean, after all, this is the common denominator for everyone who plays. right? RIGHT????

-----

L35 Mage
Armor: L33 Helm (NR), L30 Grape Shoulders (NR), L28 Chest (NR), L24 Gloves (NR), L24 Belt (NR), L33 PvP Legs (NR), L28 Boots (NR)
Weapons/Accessories: L15 RotF Staff, L19 Wand, L33 Neck, L33 Ring, L31 Ring
Sigil: Three Slot Sigil - L8 Lesser, L10 Lesser, Silverwood HoT Greater

Maybe he was a chloro???

[tevikolady]

Unfortunately, the twinks want the advantage over other players. The idea of balance is punishment to them. Arenas could be a solution but that requires participation by the twink community, which would be like trying to herd cats. I think it IS an option.

Balance is not punishment. Balance can easily be achieved.

And twinks don't want the advantage over other players. They simply strive to be the best they can be, and that means wearing the best they can, for their bracket.

[Kyera]

The mage was a Chloro. His choice of Greater was not poor; however, it was three 'steps' outdated. ;)

[tevikolady]

And then we are back to the vicious cycle of.... weeeelllll certain players just. don't. get. it.

I'll point out the major flaw in the pro-twink argument. "You simply need gear...of appropriate level (level 35 and up for level 39 pvp etc.) in all of your slots." Level 35 gear is supposedly appropriate. Since you NEED to be level 35 to EQUIP level 35 gear, you are suggesting that anybody below level 35 shouldn't even bother to que.

So the only solution they can come up with is to play like a twink. Every argument is that twinks know better. No twink argument even acknowledges that there are 10, yes count them, 10 levels in each bracket.

Let's just debunk this now. Its been said that the population just isn't big enough to support a restructuring of the brackets. So we are stuck with 10 levels per bracket.

So, what are the possible solutions then?

1. Cut off xp-off players from pvp.

2. Improve the bolster/handicap system.


I've already gone on record saying I approve of option one. Its an easy kill. Like a light switch. Click, off. Done.

Option 2 is harder. It requires a shift in thinking. I've offered one way that it could be done. I've only gotten one response on how it could be "better". (I use quotes since it is subject to perspective)

I asked before, I'll ask again, where are the creative solutions that twinks provide?

It's been suggested, repeatedly, you still havent' heard it. You're still protesting. DOWN WITH THE GEAR< DOWN WITH TEH GEAR, STOP TWINKING< STOP TWINKING.

Get off your high horse. If it was unreasonable to 'twink out' in any level bracket, we'd be having a much different conversation. I said I was sympathetic to how people feel, but I said, the solution is simple, yet you continue to rail on about the system.

Do us a favor and stop your bellyaching, get to 50 and queue up for PvP then. If yoiu don't notice a HUGE gear gap there, then you found the level bracket you should be playing in. But that's a different thread, for a different time.

We 'pro-twinks' have been kind and patient as anyone could expect us to be, and you're continual brash and outlandish attacks against 'simply gearing yourself up' is ridiculous and childish. Print out all of your posts and read them to yourself in a mirror and ask yourself if you'd listen to someone clamour on about this. When you hear it aloud, it sounds much worse than you perhaps intended.

*You* are your own worst enemy, Enthusiast. And you will make far more enemies than friends, especially since, the 'pro-twink- community has almost completely bent overbackwards to try and enlighten you, give you useful tips and some 'pro-tips' for adjusting to pvp life, but you are as tunnel-visioned as I expect your avatars in game would be in a PvP match.

And while I still try to help you, I dunno why, I know you won't get it, that all my words are a wasted effort. But if I am getting through to someone else on the forums, well, they aren't wasted after all.

And, btw, Kyera posted a decent, almost acceptable solution, but you missed that in your self-righteous crusade.

[tevikolady]

you are suggesting that anybody below level 35 shouldn't even bother to que.

NO, NO, NO, NO, AND FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME NO!

Noone here, BUT YOU has said that you should not queue before a certain level.

Support builds, even in lower levels, are STILL USEFUL VIABLE BUILDS.

But no need to tell you that, you think the only role is dps.

Except for when your b***hing for a healer to heal you

[Enthusiast]

Balance is not punishment. Balance can easily be achieved.

And twinks don't want the advantage over other players. They simply strive to be the best they can be, and that means wearing the best they can, for their bracket.

I think you need to look back at what was posted. You clearly stated you don't want to be punished. You want to have an advantage. You and others clearly stated this.

You argue that balance can be achieved if only I and every other player did what you did, lock my level and get the best gear available.

Almost every other post today has been about gear. Its the same story over and over. I've tried to push the discussion along. I really have. Yet it consistently gets derailed because its my fault or that I don't understand how the game works. If I would just try it. Go on take a puff. Try it. Why won't you try it? You suck, try it. C'mooooooooooooooooon. You suck.

Oh and apparently I'm an idiot because my arguments make zero sense. Have I not acknowledged your points of view? Have I not tried to frame the two sides of the argument? Have I not described what options are available to Trion to deal with twinking? Have I not offered what I think to be a valid solution to the problem? To see your comments today, I guess not. You would have me believe that I'm just an idiot that doesn't understand anything. So keep arguing that it is me that is the problem. That I just don't get it. That I'm lazy.

Go ahead, read all of my posts again and tell me I don't "get it".

[Misun]

I think you need to look back at what was posted. You clearly stated you don't want to be punished. You want to have an advantage. You and others clearly stated this.

You argue that balance can be achieved if only I and every other player did what you did, lock my level and get the best gear available.

Almost every other post today has been about gear.

1) please state where anyone said "they want to have an advantage"

Don't put words into peoples mouths. I want you to find an exact quote where someone says that.

2)you don't have to level lock.

3) the best gear is easily obtained by anyone.

4)Yes, every other post has been about gear. I will say it one more time:

It's a gear based game.

It's pretty clear to me that you just like to complain. Period.

[Enthusiast]

1) please state where anyone said "they want to have an advantage"

Don't put words into peoples mouths. I want you to find an exact quote where someone says that.

Ok I've found a few.

[Enthusiast]

Well, yes, I don't think there's anything intrinsicly wrong with "rewarding" people who put in the time to get geared, research specs, or put effort into developing a gameplan or strategy. I am having trouble understanding the problem here. I don't believe effort or time investment should be entirely irrelevant, especially for a progression-based game like an MMORPG.

Here's one.

[Enthusiast]

I personally twink because I like being at the top of the bracket and putting the work in to my character to make it the best it can possibly be.

Here's another.

[Enthusiast]

I am against the handicaping, yes. Why should *I* be punished? Why should ANYONE be punished.

Here's one more.

[Misun]

Here's one.

That's not what I asked. I asked you to find a quote where someone said "they want to have an advantage"

That's what you said "several" people said.

So..let's break down each quote you hand picked :

Well, yes, I don't think there's anything intrinsicly wrong with "rewarding" people who put in the time to get geared, research specs, or put effort into developing a gameplan or strategy. I am having trouble understanding the problem here. I don't believe effort or time investment should be entirely irrelevant, especially for a progression-based game like an MMORPG.

It's a gear based game. You have a problem with it being a gearbased game..that's not anyones problem, but yours.

It's like that in many games. Did you whine in those games as well? Get over it. You will be rewarded with a better pvp experience if you gear your character.

I personally twink because I like being at the top of the bracket and putting the work in to my character to make it the best it can possibly be.

I noticed you just wanted to focus on the first part of that quote...but not the second?

It's a gear based game. That's why a new level 50 gets stomped in wf's by rank 40's. Because it's a gear based game.

I am against the handicaping, yes. Why should *I* be punished? Why should ANYONE be punished.

So? Why should someone who has put in the time and effort into their character, be brought down because someone else wants to be lazy?

Gear is easily obtainable..yet you don't want to gear your character..so because you don't want to gear your character, everyone else should be brought down to your level of play? Is that correct?

Your arguments hold no water. You are making yourself appear bitter and angry..because apparently you feel it's "unfair" that you should have to improve your character, therefore everyone else should be just like you.

TRION has already stated that they do not feel that twinking is a problem. Any issues they felt may have been unfair have been dealt with for the most part.

Again, I strongly suggest that instead of spending so much time on the forums, complaining and waving your pitchfork around, you try and improve your character..and learn how to play the game.