Thoughts on Melee Rogues

[Am0n]

I can only think of one 'melee' rogue and that is Ace, or maybe he just stood out. I'm sure there's more, but I can't say I've seen them.

Rift really doesn't seem to lend itself to melee play for the average player, in my opinion.

Oh thanks

[Ashh]

I just don't like builds that can be played to practically full capacity with like 5 keybinds >.>

I use more than 5 keybinds.... I'm special. Truth be told, with Rift's macro system most builds can be played with minimal keybinds.

[Charlice]

Oh thanks

I've never seen you in there or... maybe you just killed me too fast for me to notice...

[Am0n]

I've never seen you in there or... maybe you just killed me too fast for me to notice...

Truth be told I havent been in Rift at all for a long while, GW2 testing, TSW testing (sucks dont bother with it) WoW twinking, and TF2 is where I have been wasting my time lately. Not that I don't want to log into Rift, I'm just waaaaaaaaaaaay to burned out.

But I am almost 100% positive I am the only Rogue that played this game at a competitive level with 0 macros.

[Zaros]

I use more than 5 keybinds.... I'm special. Truth be told, with Rift's macro system most builds can be played with minimal keybinds.

Maybe you do, but trust me.. The majority of NB/RS's don't, lol.

[Ashh]

Maybe you do, but trust me.. The majority of NB/RS's don't, lol.

I'll give you that.

[Violacea]

I hardly ever see 51 NBs, but I think they're balanced.

I see a lot of Sin hybrids/51 Sins, and laugh in their underpowered faces.

I see a metric asston of NB/RS's, and for my opinion of them, see this video.

It's just hard to be consistent in melee. If a 51sin could have the consistent ease of damage output on their target like say a MM, they would great damage. As would a 51BD, NB, etc. IMO only thing that makes melee sub par is the fact that were not pve targets and we can move. I don't think people would play much melee in pve if mobs just decided to constantly work on moving away from you or out of your facing target range. The concept of melee + pvp is rough. Why the best ones usually have gap filler damage or gap closers at heavy avail. But man if I could just pelt away my abilities on my sin on a target like I can on my MM, people would be dying everywhere. Think about it, it's really just consistency potential that make the more pure rogue melee options less feasable in pvp. Most of the time you fight people who move and CC you.

Pretty much answers the OP of what I see in WFs. If I do see melee they usually have medium ranged damage or ports/rushes to do gap closing. But most people I see choose something ranged. The point is easily shown when I can do pve junk and when I get a mob willing to just stand in my face, go 51 BD, pop temps and watch a target go down faster than almost any rogue soul will bring them down. It pales out what MM does standing still IME. But MM pales out a BD in WF's because of consistency. 50/50 why I think mmo pvp can be bogus. I can't imagine an FPS being very fun if I only had 5 - 20m range weapons, even if all the people who are knocking me up from 20 - 35m range are hitting for less. At least they are always hitting me.

In FPS, melee hits are regarded as a daring attempt and if you pull it off a nearly embarrassing death for the enemy, being killed at melee range in a game of long range weapons. Some of the deadliest players are the ones who can predict/aim from far away. Plenty of great players who get up in your face beyond melee range too though. In MMO's, melee range is a preference verses ranged. The fundamentals imo still apply though and is why you see lack of pure melee in WF's. It's like running around in a FPS game with the guantlet/melee weapon out trying to get kills. Everyones killing you before you get to them. Luckily this isn't a pure FPS though and theres healers and mitigation, but overall the point stands I think. I succeed far most on Sab and MM compared to any rogue soul.

[Zaros]

It's just hard to be consistent in melee. If a 51sin could have the consistent ease of damage output on their target like say a MM, they would great damage. As would a 51BD, NB, etc. IMO only thing that makes melee sub par is the fact that were not pve targets and we can move. I don't think people would play much melee in pve if mobs just decided to constantly work on moving away from you or out of your facing target range. The concept of melee + pvp is rough. Why the best ones usually have gap filler damage or gap closers at heavy avail. But man if I could just pelt away my abilities on my sin on a target like I can on my MM, people would be dying everywhere. Think about it, it's really just consistency potential that make the more pure rogue melee options less feasable in pvp. Most of the time you fight people who move and CC you.

Pretty much answers the OP of what I see in WFs. If I do see melee they usually have medium ranged damage or ports/rushes to do gap closing. But most people I see choose something ranged. The point is easily shown when I can do pve junk and when I get a mob willing to just stand in my face, go 51 BD, pop temps and watch a target go down faster than almost any rogue soul will bring them down. It pales out what MM does standing still IME. But MM pales out a BD in WF's because of consistency. 50/50 why I think mmo pvp can be bogus. I can't imagine an FPS being very fun if I only had 5 - 20m range weapons, even if all the people who are knocking me up from 20 - 35m range are hitting for less. At least they are always hitting me.

In FPS, melee hits are regarded as a daring attempt and if you pull it off a nearly embarrassing death for the enemy, being killed at melee range in a game of long range weapons. Some of the deadliest players are the ones who can predict/aim from far away. Plenty of great players who get up in your face beyond melee range too though. In MMO's, melee range is a preference verses ranged. The fundamentals imo still apply though and is why you see lack of pure melee in WF's. It's like running around in a FPS game with the guantlet/melee weapon out trying to get kills. Everyones killing you before you get to them. Luckily this isn't a pure FPS though and theres healers and mitigation, but overall the point stands I think. I succeed far most on Sab and MM compared to any rogue soul.

This is true with Rogues, and I do wish Rogue melee in PvP was more like Warrior melee--I think Warrior melee is fairly balanced (this is coming from an MM who can kite someone indefinitely, so their damage probably needs a slight nerf) bar Planar Blade. It's specs like 51 Champion that really define the 'melee' that I personally like in a game. If it gets in melee range, you're either screwed or you're not coming out unscathed. What that presents is a 'front line' mechanic where you can actually push people back because they're afraid of you when you're in melee, which is the way it should be IMO.

Despite that though, people still do fear melee range arbitrarily, which is why I tend to play 44/22 MM/RS like a melee spec if I'm really focused on conquering an objective. The same with my Warrior--I can be running around in 38 VK/28 Pally, doing next to no damage, but I'll still push people back. It works extremely well in gametypes like Black Garden and Whitefall escalation. Although the irony is 44/22 MM/RS is a ranged spec, but I just play it in melee, more effectively than most other Rogue melee builds. I'm not saying Rogue melee needs a flat out buff, but I think it could use a transition from titanium toothpick to glass cannon.

[Louiscipher]

Personally, I see very few top end melee rogues in warfronts. Most of the ones I do see are NB/RS hybrids. If you do see a lot of these top end rogues in warfronts, can you name them (instead of just claiming that you seem them all over, or whatever)? If you currently play a class other than rogue, would you be comfortable seeing a nerf to the NB/RS hybrid build, if 51 sins and NB's were buffed ?

This post disturbs me for a lot of reasons. First, to assume that nb/rs variants need to be nerfed because for some reason certain players are unable to defeat it is absurd. Second, many of the 51 sin or nb builds are simply to squishy to be used consistently unless your side has a massive amount of heals. Third, NB/RS variants are complex builds that like the sin require a lot of timing to be effective. I find a lot of good rogues cannot even use a nb/rs because its too hard for them. I would also like to add that goes for Pvp MM builds. MM builds are complex and require a lot of skill.

I usually play an Nb variant all the time but I use different builds within that class. I appreciate all the different styles the Rogue class has and each build is situational. If you find yourself getting killed fast by one of these NB builds, and you see the NB has a good healing he or she is probably using some kind of NB/Sin combo maybe a 49nb/17sin or 48nb/18sin....

Your likely to see a lot more NB's or MM's because Warriors flat out do dmg and many rogues Like to attack from the outside to survive better. Also, Most good players attack blues first and then melee so don't be discouraged if you're a mage or cleric its just the nature of the game and the mindset is to drop blues first.

We have to stop the lets Nerf classes mindset because it hurts the game. If you find yourself frustrated with wf's and you die fast then maybe you need to learn your class a lot more, because I see good pvp players in wf's from each of the 4 classes.

[Emanresu]

Got some decent feedback going on here, thanks for that. I didn't want to get in to what spec I play, but 90% of the time (even in PoS at times) I play 51 NB/12 BD/3 RS. I've gone toe to toe with some good players in duels with this build and I can beat a lot of people with it. It has been very successful for me in almost every WF (though I'll admit that in the aoe zerg fest of PoS it's not ideal). 51 sin, 15 BD is my 2d role. 38 NB/28 RS is my third. 51 MM/15 RNGR is my 4th. My 5th and 6th roles fluctuate between a 51 sab, a bard build, a grinding build and 44MM/22RS. Of all these, my favorite is 51 sin/ 15 BD, but I almost NEVER play it, unless I just get really bored. it's just not effective against good competition. My 51 NB/12 BD/ 3RS build is the best I have found so far, for a melee rogue. I've gotten so used to it and decent at playing it that I'll usually just stay it rather than going to the more defensively oriented 38 NB/28RS if I'm running a stone or something.

There are things that can be done that would make melee rogues much more viable than they currently are, and it doesn't involve huge damage increases and they wouldn't be hard to do, just would require some adjusting. But it does involve making the builds more complicated to play, which I'm completely fine with. NB/RS does have a low learning curve, but it's slope increases exponentially towards the end, meaning those that have mastered it can do some great things with it, in certain situations, but in order to get all that mobility, you give up a lot of damage (relatively speaking). I'd just like to see melee rogues have access to a play style that is anti warrior, if you will, but with similar results (ie more of indirect approach to killing your foes).

[Emanresu]

This post disturbs me for a lot of reasons. First, to assume that nb/rs variants need to be nerfed because for some reason certain players are unable to defeat it is absurd. Second, many of the 51 sin or nb builds are simply to squishy to be used consistently unless your side has a massive amount of heals. Third, NB/RS variants are complex builds that like the sin require a lot of timing to be effective. I find a lot of good rogues cannot even use a nb/rs because its too hard for them. I would also like to add that goes for Pvp MM builds. MM builds are complex and require a lot of skill.

I usually play an Nb variant all the time but I use different builds within that class. I appreciate all the different styles the Rogue class has and each build is situational. If you find yourself getting killed fast by one of these NB builds, and you see the NB has a good healing he or she is probably using some kind of NB/Sin combo maybe a 49nb/17sin or 48nb/18sin....

Your likely to see a lot more NB's or MM's because Warriors flat out do dmg and many rogues Like to attack from the outside to survive better. Also, Most good players attack blues first and then melee so don't be discouraged if you're a mage or cleric its just the nature of the game and the mindset is to drop blues first.

We have to stop the lets Nerf classes mindset because it hurts the game. If you find yourself frustrated with wf's and you die fast then maybe you need to learn your class a lot more, because I see good pvp players in wf's from each of the 4 classes.

I should point out, I don't think NB/RS needs a nerf. In fact I think it's weak compared to 51NB/12BD/3RS (I usually know that I'll be able to put out more damage than them and the only way they'll survive is by running away from me. Not always, but most of the time). But I've heard an inordinate amount of complaining from people about it. I think the trick is to buff 51 sin and/or 51 NB while not simultaneously greatly affecting NB/RS.

[lycosis]

51 Sin is annoyingly cheesy.

Rogue pops out of stealth and dots me up with multiple poisons, some last 15 seconds or longer. If I pressure he slips away while the poisons keep me in combat so I can't drink to heal. Then when the poisons almost wear off I'm at 20% health and he pops out of stealth to kill me. Then stays perma stealth until slipaway is off cooldown only to do it all again.

[Zaros]

NB/RS variants are complex builds that like the sin require a lot of timing to be effective. I find a lot of good rogues cannot even use a nb/rs because its too hard for them. I would also like to add that goes for Pvp MM builds. MM builds are complex and require a lot of skill.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...4/facepalm.jpg

[Am0n]

Real Rogues play Bard Variants, minus the macros

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBLOOgHz7OE

Or Sin/NB variants

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mA8nCdTuWo

Self promotion for the day, COMPLETE

[Violacea]

Pretty much for WF's for rogues

Sin specs: still actually great for ganking random/key players and sneaking in. I always liked using sin stealth then breaking stealth with role change to RS in Whitefall CTF ;p

RS strong specs: objective carriers

MM/Sab specs - pro ST ranged damage, pro aoe damage. MM can escape from from you. Sab can't but you better kill it if it has gear

RS + NB (maybe sometimes BD) - consistent damage melee heavy specs with lots of gap closers 20m range capabiity

51 NB - Very strong spec with a healer behind it. Without a healer it will eat dirt fast.

Bard - support and play them green numbers.

Pure melee like BD (which honestly I think is the strongest damage output in *perfect* cases) - rare because you have nearly no gap closers and little means of efficiently catching up. If a healer is dumb and doesn't move away from a BD with their 51 abil up or temp that causes the heavy melee hits to double strike. That spec will slice a caster in half. Just sucks to be pure melee with almost no gap closers. Pushing nearly 100% crit with 50% added crit bonus for 21s is serious damage. If you're in range.