Solution for the anti-merc crowd: opt out with penalties

[Meina]

"Seems to be a huge issue for a large number of people"? To you maybe it does. If you look at all the twink threads, maybe it does. But I guess you aren't paying attention to all the people in those twink threads who are explaining why it's a good thing and how it's helped give them reason to keep playing Rift.

First, I never said that I had a problem with twinking.

Second, there has been what seems to be much more of a negative response to twinking then there was to the merc system. Trion, however, decided to take two different routes when dealing with these issues. One was to ignore the complaints of the so-called minority (the anti-merc people) and the other was to ignore the complaints of what seemed to be the majority (the anti-twinks).

Yes, I've noticed "all the people" explaining why the twinking is a good thing. I've been one of them. I've also noticed "all the people" complaining about it on these forums and in game and, in this case, it seems that the majority of the played base is against it.

Just like I've noticed "all the people" doing the same about the merc system, both on these forums and in game. Only in this case the pro option people seem to be outnumbered by the instant gratification crowd.

So, again, I'm led to believe that Trion is less concerned about majority or minority than it is about doing what they feel is best for the game. And, like I said, at this point they seem to feel that the best possible thing for PvP is to attain the fastest queue times possible, regardless of how it impacts the quality of PvP in this game.

[Cime]

The merc system is necessary. End of story.

But what if you really, really, REALLY don't want to play alongside the opposing faction?

How about this: if you turn merc "off", you queue with a 50% penalty to favor/prestige/experience gains.

You're choosing not to participate in the system that is providing everyone with faster queues, more favor/prestige, and a fantastically improved overall pvp experience, so you don't get to enjoy the benefits of said system. You'll still have short 1-2m queues, but your rate of favor/presitge/xp will be more like what we saw on average from the previous system.

Oh, and max-geared P40 players who don't merc? Since they have no need for favor/prestige, they suffer a 5% penalty to all stats and 100% reduction in experience gain.

I came up with a better idea.

Merc toggle -
Off = all xp/favor/prestige gain set to 0
and little rainbows, pink butterflies, and a glittery cloud surround you so everyone knows what a candy *** you are

Max geared p40 DO need favor...and experience. We have these crazy little things called PAs that hardcore PVPers HATE to grind out.

Honestly, I can't believe ANOTHER "solution for merc carebears" post has popped up. These things are a like a bad case of herpes. Suck it up. Kill the red guys or heal the blue. Don't stand there on the sideline and be the idiot saying, "I just can't bring myself to kill my Guardian/Defiant brothers/sisters!" (When I hear stuff like that it screams to me, you couldn't kill them if you tried)

[Starsong]

I came up with a better idea.

Merc toggle -
Off = all xp/favor/prestige gain set to 0
and little rainbows, pink butterflies, and a glittery cloud surround you so everyone knows what a candy *** you are

Max geared p40 DO need favor...and experience. We have these crazy little things called PAs that hardcore PVPers HATE to grind out.

Honestly, I can't believe ANOTHER "solution for merc carebears" post has popped up. These things are a like a bad case of herpes. Suck it up. Kill the red guys or heal the blue. Don't stand there on the sideline and be the idiot saying, "I just can't bring myself to kill my Guardian/Defiant brothers/sisters!" (When I hear stuff like that it screams to me, you couldn't kill them if you tried)

Except the carebears are the ones that need to have the merc system, you got that backwards. Carebears want the easiest quickest routes.

[handerhank]

I find it utterly hillarious you created a toon in this game without realizing Defiants were outbalancing Guardians. You must be pretty oblivious to anything, since it was established far before launch that about 75% of the population was going to be Defiant. That makes you pretty slow on the uptake.

So now your argument has shifted gears to "you should have known, right at launch, based on beta test data (I guess?) which faction to pick at character selection for optimal pvp queue times". Are you even listening to yourself? I guess I should blame Trion for not putting that little nugget next to the faction info? Or is not predicting the exact trajectory of end-game pvp population *before I've even logged into the game for the very first time* also my fault?

We've reached the point in the discussion where you're flying so far afield with your suggestions as to demonstrate a complete lack of interest in an intellectually honest debate on this subject. You're throwing random crap at the wall and hoping it sticks because you don't actually care if it does or doesn't. You've made up your myopic, selfish mind, and that's that.

Your "rational" arguments are far from being that. My play experience is based on being GUARDIAN killing DEFIANTS not helping Defiants. My play experience IS being affected regardless if you want to admit or like it.

Your experience is based on playing a video game character killing other video game characters. That is precisely what we all want to do. No one should have to suffer a situation where the very act of participation is somehow gated or measured by factors initially outside of his/her control (and eventually quite irrevocable given the attachment most players form to their mains). That you'd want this to be the case just so you can maintain some weird arbitrary faction pride is laughable.

I believe that my attachments to my friends, my guild, and my toon are infinitely stronger than your attachment to guardian pugs - and that's what it comes down to. If you want to play with your specific crew, premade is always an option. If that doesn't cover your "I need to play with my friends" criteria, I'm not sure Trion should be trying to please you in the first place.

So you and every other zergling Defiants excuse is so you don't have to be misreable, we do? Wrong answer pal and far from "rational".

If my definition of miserable is "I can't play the game because queue times are 20-30 mins", and your definition of miserable is "I have to play alongside defiants sometimes", then yes - any sane person would opt for you to be miserable over me. Now account for the fact that a majority of players were suffering queue issues (which is, again, self-evident, btw) and it's even more clear cut who should sacrifice in this situation.

Merc system is not what is best for the sustained health of the game. Even more and more Guardians stop playing and stop pvping becuase of the merc system making the faction imbalance even greater rather than helping it.

People are quitting because the bloom is off the rose and they haven't introduced any new, compelling pvp content in a while. The incoming patch is obviously very pve-focused, so there's a good chance we'll see even more departures - especially as we head into Tera/GW2 season. The number of people bailing due to merc mechanic is, I guarantee, a drop in the bucket by comparison.

Also, why do Guardians end up on the Defiant side so much since we are so outnumbered in population? Merc system isn't about balance, it is about fast quing only.

Duh?

This is NOT an FPS, you want supper fast instanced pvp without factions, take it some where else, this game is obviously not for you. After all, we are playing a FACTION based game.

So if I want to actually PLAY the game I'm paying to play more than once every 20-30 mins, I should go somewhere else? You're like the business anti-christ.

No, there is no proof the system was put in place because the majority of the population needed it, wanted it or still want it. That is just yet another assumption.

It's a logical truth, actually. More players were negatively impacted by the long queue times because the long queue times were caused by the existence of surplus players.

You're not demonstrating the minimum capacities for abstract thought or lateral problem solving required to continue this conversation.

[Kaelthun]

You're not demonstrating the minimum capacities for abstract thought or lateral problem solving required to continue this conversation.

That's going in my sig, period.

Also, I find the argument that the game is "faction-based" to be a bit thin. The game has factions, but it is certainly not based on it. In fact, I would say this game is a faction-themed and enjoyment-based MMO. This opposed to, for example, League of Legends which is a steampunk-themed and competition-based MOBA. Or Counter Strike which is a counter-terrorist-themed and skillbased (to a degree, hax!) FPS. I dunno, maybe I'm talking out of my cheeks but that's kind of how I see it.

I think the point of an MMO is to make sure as many of its players are enjoying themselves as possible. Nothing more, nothing less. Whether you do this by having your developers gather intel and then incorporate the conclusions about said enjoyment into their own designs or just build whatever the community asks for is up to the company creating / hosting / running / developing the game. I think Trion focuses a lot of their efforts on making the game enjoyable rather than clinging to in-game notions like "faction" or "roleplayabilty" or "you should have exclusive control over everything". Still, they maintain a very well-varied world that's large and offers a lot in the way of consistency.

Instanced PvP is kind of sucky as it is. It's grindy like dungeons but slightly less of a hardline approach to optimization because you're up against players rather than scripted adventures. It's the same reason every time an MMO comes out post-DAoC all the forums are alight with "We Want Open World PvP WvWvW NOW!". This whole instancing thing is economical but the general enjoyment factor does take a hit. That aside, instanced PvP is about going out and fighting the other team. Whatever that other team may be.

Whether you're being divided up in blue vs red, green vs purple, rotworms vs frog-dogs or even mercing in the name of some neutral faction - it's all the same. Instancing this kind of content is just a mechanical gimmick to make sure everyone can have the same 'amount' of fun at a time. It's like people telling you they like biscuits so you make a giant one but then tell everyone they can only have their little square from it. It slices the cake so everyone gets their piece, the whole notion of factions goes against this. It essentially makes the pieces of the cake smaller for everyone and can even make favour the amount of cake to one faction. This wastes cake. No one likes wasting cake, cake is nice. I like cake. Sorry, where was I going with this?

If you choose to get upset about the faction labels being dropped from instanced pvp battlefrontgroundwars than that's your damage. It's you who invested so much in it in the first place, with no second thought spent on the enjoyment of the entirety of the community. Much like the community at large didn't really think about yours. Seems kind of pointless to argue to be honest. Trion did what was in everyone's best interest, whether you liked it or not.

TL;DR: Shorter queues, more play, more fun, more happy. Some sadface, they'll get over it.

PS. If queues are popping too quick for you, consider queueing every 20 mins instead. That way you get the same experience of having a time delay due to overcrowding on one faction.

[Ardor]

Not to get all role-playing about it, but shouldn't I be *rewarded* for refusing to sell my services to the enemy of my faction? Shouldn't my faction have me executed for my treason?

I like fast queues. but I hate the mercenary mechanic; it cheapens PvP. Maybe choosing to merc should have some risk, and some extra reward, and based on those, you get to choose whether to accept a mercenary position or not.

[Starsong]

So now your argument has shifted gears to "you should have known, right at launch, based on beta test data (I guess?) which faction to pick at character selection for optimal pvp queue times". Are you even listening to yourself? I guess I should blame Trion for not putting that little nugget next to the faction info? Or is not predicting the exact trajectory of end-game pvp population *before I've even logged into the game for the very first time* also my fault?

We've reached the point in the discussion where you're flying so far afield with your suggestions as to demonstrate a complete lack of interest in an intellectually honest debate on this subject. You're throwing random crap at the wall and hoping it sticks because you don't actually care if it does or doesn't. You've made up your myopic, selfish mind, and that's that.




Your experience is based on playing a video game character killing other video game characters. That is precisely what we all want to do. No one should have to suffer a situation where the very act of participation is somehow gated or measured by factors initially outside of his/her control (and eventually quite irrevocable given the attachment most players form to their mains). That you'd want this to be the case just so you can maintain some weird arbitrary faction pride is laughable.

I believe that my attachments to my friends, my guild, and my toon are infinitely stronger than your attachment to guardian pugs - and that's what it comes down to. If you want to play with your specific crew, premade is always an option. If that doesn't cover your "I need to play with my friends" criteria, I'm not sure Trion should be trying to please you in the first place.



If my definition of miserable is "I can't play the game because queue times are 20-30 mins", and your definition of miserable is "I have to play alongside defiants sometimes", then yes - any sane person would opt for you to be miserable over me. Now account for the fact that a majority of players were suffering queue issues (which is, again, self-evident, btw) and it's even more clear cut who should sacrifice in this situation.



People are quitting because the bloom is off the rose and they haven't introduced any new, compelling pvp content in a while. The incoming patch is obviously very pve-focused, so there's a good chance we'll see even more departures - especially as we head into Tera/GW2 season. The number of people bailing due to merc mechanic is, I guarantee, a drop in the bucket by comparison.



Duh?



So if I want to actually PLAY the game I'm paying to play more than once every 20-30 mins, I should go somewhere else? You're like the business anti-christ.



It's a logical truth, actually. More players were negatively impacted by the long queue times because the long queue times were caused by the existence of surplus players.

You're not demonstrating the minimum capacities for abstract thought or lateral problem solving required to continue this conversation.

Really? You did not look at any forums or any review of the game before you started playing it? You have got to be 1 in 100000 that did not put forth any effort. There were polls on every fansite every where in regards to this just like every other post WoW faction game at launch about what faction people would choose. Are you listening to yourself? You are trying to sound extremely intelligent, I am willing to bet it took you 20 minutes and your thesarus to make that post lol. I have no need to impress with my vocabulary on the forums, it is not working either because I am not impressed at all.

Also, it does not take a genius to realize that every game post WoW at launch that is faction based has had the "evil" or "twisted" side outnumber the "good" or "righteous" side. If you are that oblivious to trends in MMORPGs maybe you should not be commenting on what is good or not good for the community as a whole, you have not done any of the research prequisite for that conversation.

You just hurling insults, inuendo and conjecture does not help your case either. Any sane person would disagree completely with your points as a sane person would realize that you are no more important than I am in what they want from a product I am paying for and wanting it to resemble the product I purchased, which happens to be a FACTION BASED MMORPG, not just a bag of fun MMO like the other guys suggested. RPG is in the title, maybe if the RPG part bothers you, again, you might be in the wrong game or genre. It is not just about what "I" personally like or what. I happen to speak for a guild and represent what our guild desires are, we do not care if you like what we want either. We do however have the right to continually express our desires as we are paying customers for this game as well.

Where is the factual data to back up your claims on subscription losses or lack of people quing for pvp? Again, you have expressed the fact you put no effort into researching anything and just make blanket false claims and statements because it suits your argument. Your "truth" is nothing more than your failable assumptions with no proof or research to contain what you are claiming as fact. Who is the one committing aggrievious attrocities of failed intellectually stimulating conversation in any sort of rational manner in a socially acceptable form here? I would highly suspect that would be you!

tldr Next time, instead of spending time in your thesarus, go research your argument and have facts and not imaginary "truths".

[Laban of C O]

Nerf Bacon.

[Meina]

So now your argument has shifted gears to "you should have known, right at launch, based on beta test data (I guess?) which faction to pick at character selection for optimal pvp queue times". Are you even listening to yourself? I guess I should blame Trion for not putting that little nugget next to the faction info? Or is not predicting the exact trajectory of end-game pvp population *before I've even logged into the game for the very first time* also my fault?

I chose to play Guardian for one very important reason.

I knew, going in, that PvP'ers tend to choose the "bad guy" when they make their characters. So, knowing this and knowing how a 2 faction system worked when it came to queues, I chose to roll a "good guy" because I had a pretty good idea what was going to happen.

Anyone PvP'er who has had any experience with 2 faction games should realize what the repercussions are when they choose a faction.


Just sayin'...


As for the rest of your post, I've been over that 1,000 times already and I really don't want to go over it again. Let's just say that opinions vary.

[handerhank]

Really? You did not look at any forums or any review of the game before you started playing it? You have got to be 1 in 100000 that did not put forth any effort. There were polls on every fansite every where in regards to this just like every other post WoW faction game at launch about what faction people would choose. Are you listening to yourself? You are trying to sound extremely intelligent, I am willing to bet it took you 20 minutes and your thesarus to make that post lol. I have no need to impress with my vocabulary on the forums, it is not working either because I am not impressed at all.

Impress with my vocabulary? You some kind of simpleton? Not sure I've ever been accused of using a *thesaurus* before, though. I feel like one of those FPS pros who is constantly being accused of cheating.

You realize that over one million people were playing this game at one point, right? You honestly believe they all researched every inch of it beforehand? Beta tested it, etc.?

Some people actually try not to actively ruin any and all surprises for themselves before playing a game. People like me. It was an impulse buy, and I've continued with it because I enjoy it.

Also, it does not take a genius to realize that every game post WoW at launch that is faction based has had the "evil" or "twisted" side outnumber the "good" or "righteous" side. If you are that oblivious to trends in MMORPGs maybe you should not be commenting on what is good or not good for the community as a whole, you have not done any of the research prequisite for that conversation.

I'm attempting to represent the larger portion of the player base - the ones who don't feel compelled to do all the research beforehand. Those are the people generating the bulk of the subs, and that's the money enabling the game to flourish/grow. If you can't see the long term, big-picture impact of leaving those people out in the cold, that's on you.

You just hurling insults, inuendo and conjecture does not help your case either. Any sane person would disagree completely with your points as a sane person would realize that you are no more important than I am in what they want from a product I am paying for and wanting it to resemble the product I purchased

Inability to even participate in the game ALWAYS trumps comparatively minor issues like faction segregation. It's all very much akin to server uptime versus game balance. And Trion is obviously going to take into account as much of and as many viewpoints as possible when designing their game - but they've got to make some tough, unpopular calls from time to time in order to enable some functions (like pvp) on a basic level.

You're engaging in false equivalencies. Your concern is not on the same level as every other concern by virtue of it being yours. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's valuable. Aggregate opinion is what's valuable.

, which happens to be a FACTION BASED MMORPG, not just a bag of fun MMO like the other guys suggested. RPG is in the title, maybe if the RPG part bothers you, again, you might be in the wrong game or genre. It is not just about what "I" personally like or what. I happen to speak for a guild and represent what our guild desires are, we do not care if you like what we want either. We do however have the right to continually express our desires as we are paying customers for this game as well.

This is true. I can't fault you for disliking it. In an ideal world, I would very much prefer the factions remain separate for WF queues. When I first heard about the merc system, I wasn't too thrilled. Then my queue times improved by a factor of almost *10*. Sorry, again, that trumps virtually all other concerns. I can actually pvp when I want to pvp now, and this was an enormous consideration in my decision to continue supporting this game.

Where is the factual data to back up your claims on subscription losses or lack of people quing for pvp? Again, you have expressed the fact you put no effort into researching anything and just make blanket false claims and statements because it suits your argument. Your "truth" is nothing more than your failable assumptions with no proof or research to contain what you are claiming as fact. Who is the one committing aggrievious attrocities of failed intellectually stimulating conversation in any sort of rational manner in a socially acceptable form here? I would highly suspect that would be you!

My proof is that Trion did this in the first place, and that they've clearly defended the necessity of the system in the face of numerous heartfelt posts of disagreement. There are economic imperatives evident in their actions - because those are what keep a pay-to-play MMO afloat. Read between the lines, man.

[Starsong]

Impress with my vocabulary? You some kind of simpleton? Not sure I've ever been accused of using a *thesaurus* before, though. I feel like one of those FPS pros who is constantly being accused of cheating.

You realize that over one million people were playing this game at one point, right? You honestly believe they all researched every inch of it beforehand? Beta tested it, etc.?

Some people actually try not to actively ruin any and all surprises for themselves before playing a game. People like me. It was an impulse buy, and I've continued with it because I enjoy it.



I'm attempting to represent the larger portion of the player base - the ones who don't feel compelled to do all the research beforehand. Those are the people generating the bulk of the subs, and that's the money enabling the game to flourish/grow. If you can't see the long term, big-picture impact of leaving those people out in the cold, that's on you.



Inability to even participate in the game ALWAYS trumps comparatively minor issues like faction segregation. It's all very much akin to server uptime versus game balance. And Trion is obviously going to take into account as much of and as many viewpoints as possible when designing their game - but they've got to make some tough, unpopular calls from time to time in order to enable some functions (like pvp) on a basic level.

You're engaging in false equivalencies. Your concern is not on the same level as every other concern by virtue of it being yours. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean it's valuable. Aggregate opinion is what's valuable.



This is true. I can't fault you for disliking it. In an ideal world, I would very much prefer the factions remain separate for WF queues. When I first heard about the merc system, I wasn't too thrilled. Then my queue times improved by a factor of almost *10*. Sorry, again, that trumps virtually all other concerns. I can actually pvp when I want to pvp now, and this was an enormous consideration in my decision to continue supporting this game.



My proof is that Trion did this in the first place, and that they've clearly defended the necessity of the system in the face of numerous heartfelt posts of disagreement. There are economic imperatives evident in their actions - because those are what keep a pay-to-play MMO afloat. Read between the lines, man.

Again, you are making broad assumptions based on your personal desires. You have no data to back up your claims of "larger portion of the player base". I completely disagree with you, the majority of players READ before playing a game, no where did I say BETA test, I said READ reviews and visit fansites. YOU are the one that would be in the minority on this. My data to back it up? Almost every single member of my guild looks at multiple things in relation to a game before we decide to play it. By means of that the actuall majority of people I have spoken too support my arguments and not yours. This extends to the many guilds we associate with and have gone into various games with over the years as well. So again, it is not even limited to me and my guild in this but many guilds that play MMORPGS as well.

As far as your excuse of inability to play the game without the merc system, again you are wrong. Go to a pvp server and find pvp. Que times in a WF do not keep you from pvping in Rift, if they are long they just slow down WF participation, not participation in pvp. WF pvp is a side game, not the main game and therefore should not change anyone's ability to enjoy the main game, which just happens to be a FACTION BASE MMORPG. Again, let me repeat that, WF pvp is a SIDE game, not the main part of the game and should not contradict the storyline of the main game.

You can try and insinuate your opinion is worth more than mine all you like, but again you are wrong. You have no proof that Trion did it based on player input at all. You are just making an assumption. The majority of vocal people on the forum detest twinking, yet they did that as well. False assumptions are false assumptions.

TLDR Too sum it up, I could agree with you but there is no sense in both of us being wrong.

[Testercules]

Get rid of it at 50 altogether and consolidate more shards.

Why does Briarcliff, a pvp shard, fight all pve shards? That bracket is absolutely horrendous for guardians. And the twink bracket is epic fail.

I moved to Seastone a couple days ago with my guild and it's rejuvenated my interesting in Rift and pvp.
Everyone loves this other bracket, but everyone still hates mercing. Give that to lowbies who are worried their faction never wins.

It's hilarious to be merc'd with your side playing defiant and only 2 of the 7 on your team are defiant. And the other team playing guardian has all the defiants on it. Faster pop when all you had to do was wait 10 more seconds for the people to join their own side. This merc system should have just been a trial.

More shards = more premade vs premade exclusives. Everyone wants that. Pugs don't want to get farmed by premades. Premades don't want to start 5v5 then have the game add a few more randoms before it starts.

[Testercules]

Or instead of such a complicated multi-case queue system just have a check box that says,

[x] Willing to be a mercenary - 50% favour/prestige gains while playing as a mercenary.

Wow, that % is way too high. If they want to encourage it, without forcing people to do it (everyone needs favor at r40 still), then you only need for it to be 10% at the most. There's already vials you get for renewing for set amounts of time, and bonuses around world events, which are all really handy.

[Meina]

They don't need to implement a penalty to favor or prestige. The penalty of waiting longer to get into a WF already does that.

If you spend twice as long in queue, that is time not spent earning favor or prestige. Adding an additional penalty to favor and prestige would just be double dipping.