Should PvP be about gear?

[Ax1om]

Again, as stated before, true skill is shown through adapting to what ever the game may be. Gear in this game is not really an issue since there are ways to lessen the gap. Plus again, what would you do with the same old repetitive pvp warfronts without rewards? Hell even FPS' caught on that if you give rewards to the masses for time spent in game that people stick around longer. You guys are judging a book by its cover with Guild Wars 2. I imagine that it will get pretty boring unless their devs kick out loads of content very quickly, but its going to be a F2P game so there is not telling how many will actually open their wallets to the game.

PvP needs fine tuned and motivating mechanics, not content in particular. MMO's can learn from RTS and FPS games.

GW2 isn't a F2P payment model, so stop spreading lies and crawl back into your hole.

[DemonRage]

There would be less "whining" about gear imbalances if Trion understood the concept of "quality over quanity" and matched teams properly.

I'd rather wait a bit and play some quality PvP rather than have instant queues with games where my R12 is put into unmatched WF or "matched" 25-40 WF. Same goes the other way round I don't want my r40 in the same WF as some r15 guy, because facerolling some low rank who can't do anything about it does not make for good PvP.

The above would be lessened if they actually balanced teams, there are many "matched" r25-40 WF where one team is mostly near the r40 end and the other near the r25, with the obvious results, does anyone at Trion actually PvP?

I'll agree with that, they need to create actual ranked WF, but i think the cost to that is longer que times. I'm curious though, how can you tell someone is r25 versus r40on the other side? I've seen some really bad r40's on my side. And i've seen some r25's and up do some amazing things to help contribute.

Also in regard to "this is the way it is in MMOs", you do realize that PvP fails and dies a slow death in in MMO after MMO, because they repeat the same mistake of trying to implement PVE's big, slow gear progression in PvP, which simply makes for bad PvP.

You'd think that with so many people continuing to play DOTAs, RTS & FPS without the "reward" of huge gear progression that would give a hint to the producers of MMOs... Though it seems at least one company might of caught on.

I think its an over dramatic exageration to say "dies a slow death"... seriously how many of us still play games like Unreal Tournament? Not the new but the first one. I did for maybe a year or 2, but after awhile you see the same thing match after match, and it would only get interesting if your server applied new content.

If your gonna compare this game to DOTA's, RTS, & FPS in regards to rewards, go play one of them. Why we keep comparing other game types to mmo's is beyond me. I like to run, it's good exercise. sure i could probably drive the same distance and take less time, but its not running, and its not exercise.

This reminds me of a job that i had, where there was always someone in the office complaining about how much they hated their job... and everyday they would whine and cry about how much they hated it. And everyone always told this person, "why don't you just get another job and quit then?". The logic seems so simple but to the complainers it is just so much better to sit and complain than do something productive that is within your control.

[DemonRage]

PvP needs fine tuned and motivating mechanics, not content in particular. MMO's can learn from RTS and FPS games.

I'd say otherwise, but thats my opnion.

My experience to RTS:Warcraft3/Frozen throne and command and conquer(tiberium sun/red alert/c and c 3) each of these have had several patches releasing new content every so often. They tried to keep the game fresh with each patch, but it catered to people with the slow pace of farming resources, building structures, and creating units. its interesting to see what combos work for your attack style but it is a slow pace.

My experience with FPS: Unreal Torunament(the original and UT3), Descent(original, D2, Mercenaries), Mech Warrior(i think they had an rts also, but never played it), and Team Fortress 2. All are fast paced, match only lasts a few minutes and provides objectives. You grab power ups on the battle field, no upgrades, except for TF2. TF2 was the first FPS i played with upgrades to weapons and armor. Was a refreshing change of pace, and it kept my attention until rift came out.

i mention all this because these are what these game types offer. MMO's have progression, just like with RPG's but on a large more active social scale.

GW2 isn't a F2P payment model, so stop spreading lies and crawl back into your hole.

Why are you responding with such malice? The person you are quoting did not attack you as far as i can tell....

[HannonHellbringer]

PvP needs fine tuned and motivating mechanics, not content in particular. MMO's can learn from RTS and FPS games.

GW2 isn't a F2P payment model, so stop spreading lies and crawl back into your hole.

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/game-faq/#four

let me know if this link does not work and look for subscription fee for guildwars 2. I do not mean to troll you but it clearly says that it is not going to have a subcription fee, just buy the game and play.

[Ax1om]

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/game-faq/#four

let me know if this link does not work and look for subscription fee for guildwars 2. I do not mean to troll you but it clearly says that it is not going to have a subcription fee, just buy the game and play.

There's a huge difference between subscription free and free to play. F2P games have to make their money via a cash shop. The result is an influence on the gameplay itsself to max monetisation from the shop. F2P is often used to trashtalk games.

The GW payment model is based on selling boxes and add-ons. It's a great chance to get a game that isn't spoilt with negative f2p or "subscription based" game elements such as weeklies, cooldowns on raidencounters and dailies. The intention of these is to keep the customers and their subs by rationing the content progress and lengthening the game.

[CreepyD]

This^
I don't PvP that much, but putting a little effort in at weekends when the bonus is on, along with making sure I use all available buffs / potions / consumables I have zoomed up the ranks.
I'm now r38 and can actually compete with r40's at last - Let me tell you it feels GOOD!

[HannonHellbringer]

There's a huge difference between subscription free and free to play. F2P games have to make their money via a cash shop. The result is an influence on the gameplay itsself to max monetisation from the shop. F2P is often used to trashtalk games.

The GW payment model is based on selling boxes and add-ons. It's a great chance to get a game that isn't spoilt with negative f2p or "subscription based" game elements such as weeklies, cooldowns on raidencounters and dailies. The intention of these is to keep the customers and their subs by rationing the content progress and lengthening the game.

Eh, sounds the same... Either way no monthly fee, sounds to me like there won't be a whole lot of in game clean up. It takes a lot to run games and if Guildwars get overloaded with a bunch of people that don't pay... well I can only see bad things happening. I'm more curious as to why you got butt hurt over my comment since it really is free to play. It may not have a cash shop but it is still free to play, your trying to defend the difference between the two is just silly since ultimately they are both free to play.

[Zaiana]

One day people will realise that you can fairly convincingly argue that absolutely nothing in life requires "skill" in any true sense of the word. Everything you ever learn is environmental or genetic anyway, you're either mentally equipped to do well thanks to peers/parents/environments or you're not.

[HannonHellbringer]

I think, in a lot of cases, that people wanting even ground really just want to be able to fight anything, any where, any time in any way. That will not happen since the game works in a Rock, paper, scissors kind of style. Even if you were able to take away gear out of the equation and just use specs alone, there are certain specs that offer more survivability and utility above others and then there are specs that hard counter others. So even if gear was not an issue, specs would then in turn be the unbalanced portion of the game, I see it as gear help offer more to enhance a players abilities. No matter how you look at it, there is no such thing as balance in this game, nor should there be, because it the game would become bland and boring... very boring.

[Syisk]

"Rift PVP is only gear and no skill"
Really? So what's your definition of skill?

Rift PVP has a lot of skill involved.
You're a fresh PVE 50 who quested to level up and figure you should be able to jump in and solo 1-on-1 kill any other character? Hardly.

To be effective as a fresh 50 pvp'er you need to start off being a support class, working with your team on WF objectives.
Eradicate/Purge enemies, buff team mates, interrupt, slow/cripple, CC, bleed, kite, etc are your keys to success.
Not flat out standing and attacking one on one.
Focus on helping your team win the WF, not having the highest "Killing Blows" stat.

Fresh PVP Guide:
1) Rift WF's are NOT a 1-on-1 duel fest. It's a team sport, deal with it. If you run around by yourself expect to get ganked and know you deserved it. Once you're experienced you can get away with being able to effectively 1-on-1.

2) As a fresh 50 (little or no PVP gear) you need to start out as a support class. Do not expect to 1-on-1 dps kill people at will just because you were an uber PVE DPS'er or Tank. Forget about 1-on-1 attacks. Buff your allies and debuff your enemies. (see point 1)

3) Understand your team WF objectives. e.g. Codex: Maintain Dex+1, OR maintain all others but Dex, or divert opponents off Dex until you can grab it. Usually someone will call objectives before the WF starts, if not watch where your team goes and stay with the biggest group. Going off on your own will get you ganked over and over. (see point 1)

4) Research your class for PVP. Your PVE soul specs likely will not work well in WF PVP, regardless how much DPS you did or how well geared you are for PVE. It's a completely different experience. There are PVP "bibles" on the forums for all classes, read up on them, test and practice, practice, practice. It's learning a completely different aspect of Rift - which is a good thing.

5) Learn how to read your target to know his spec and what his strategy is. If you see a fully buffed tank? For the love of god, do not engage in a 1-on-1 dps battle with them. Move to another target or if you can't, provide support: buff your nearby team mates, eradicate/purge the enemy buffs, cc,slow/snare them, etc.
Are they targeting or attacking you? Run/blink/Kite away , run into your team mob - generally get them to lose interest in you - or get them killed by focus chasing you into your ally group.

6) Change your spec throughout the WF depending on the objective or opponents. If you just stay one spec and get dominated over and over try changing to another spec to be more team effective. See all points above. WF's are dynamic, you have to constantly adapt.. It's not like in a RAID where all you need to follow is proper mechanics.

"But I want my PVP gear Now!?"
1) Learn how to effectively contribute to your WF team and your PVP gear will come soon enough...and you will have fun doing it.
2) Do the PVP dailies during the week. Except for the daily WF, this is oddly entirely PVE based (which you should be good at) and you will get good daily XP and Favor for gear upgrades.
3) Do the weekly bonus WF's over and over as much as you can. It gives Double xp/favor and is the fastest way to level/favor up. Don't bother with the daily WF if there is a bonus wf in effect.

With all of the above will you still get killed? Yes, of course.
Here's a news flash, even Rank 40 geared players get killed all the time.
This is PVP, not a PVE quest, dungeon or Raid. Get use to being killed, it's not the end of the world, it doesn't cost you plat, your soul isn't damaged.
Learn from your death and be better prepared/skilled to avoid or counter that situation in the future.
PUG WF's are hit and miss. You can do everything right and your team might still get dominated. It happens, no big deal. The queue's are fast for the next one.

Pro Tip: Do not engage in /WF chat when you are frustrated. Calling people out on how bad they are doesn't matter to anyone. No one cares. Writing a novel about "how much everyone sucks but you" in chat won't educate anyone. Get in a PVP friendly guild and form a pre-made with your guild mates and use Vent/TeamSpeak if PUG's bother you so much. Conversely, don't get upset or chat respond when someone calls out how much you suck.
Laugh it off, learn from your mistakes and practice, practice, practice.

[DemonRage]

"Rift PVP is only gear and no skill"

1) Rift WF's are NOT a 1-on-1 duel fest. It's a team sport, deal with it. If you run around by yourself expect to get ganked and know you deserved it. Once you're experienced you can get away with being able to effectively 1-on-1.

This hit it on the head, here's your skill. You have no idea how many people i see talk the talk in meridian, challenging people to duels and spouting out "ROFL your a baddie!!", but when they que for a WF I see them topping off the death charts. Why? Cause they try to find one person and isolate them, and duel them, but out of no where comes 3 guys on mounts washing over that one guy like a pain train.

Its group pvp, you need to work on group strats and support your team. The same can be done in open world, don't think the other faction will be alone, they could have buddies stealthed or hiding somewhere.

And no amount of gear will save you in these situations, it takes awareness and skill.

[Haldern]

There is some element of skill in RIFT PvP. Some. Not an amazing amount compared to some other MMOs such as Warcraft or SW:TOR. If you think gear is not a massive advantage, you are kidding yourself.

Coming back from playing various other MMOs after a 4 month hiatus I thought I might have been wrong about how bad RIFT PvP is/was. I wasn't. They have improved it a little bit from when I last left, by removing the gear requirements, PvP souls (what a joke) and ranking the warfronts, it's still awful though. What I don't like about it:

- Overly simplistic class design. Most classes/specs need another ten buttons to push minimum, especially Warriors. I am not a huge fan of action bar-style MMOs (key binds add a barrier to entry), however, if that is the choice they make then they should at least add enough abilities.

- Stupidly powerful macro system: it shouldn't be possible to put most of your rotation in one button. There are quite a few specs out there with a 3 button max burst rotation, plus a few utility skills. I would hardly call that a high skill cap.

- Too much burst damage/healing. If you get focused by multiple damage dealers you are dead in a few seconds, even with heals. The burst healing has to be equally high to counter this.

- Too many people per Warfront/small Warfronts exasperating the burst damage problem.

RIFT frankly has the worst PvP of any of the post-Warcraft MMOs (that I have played). Games like Guild Wars (1), Warcraft and SW:TOR simply blow it out the water, as illustrated by the subscription numbers. I do like the design of the Warfronts themselves though, it's just everything else sucks. ;) I'm going to take a few screenies (for the MMO scrapbook), re-cancel my sub and get my backside back to the other MMOs. Maybe I will be back when RIFT goes free to play; I can't see it staying as a subscription based MMO another year (especially with TERA, GW2 and The Secret World coming out this year).

[victz]

- Overly simplistic class design. Most classes/specs need another ten buttons to push minimum, especially Warriors. I am not a huge fan of action bar-style MMOs (key binds add a barrier to entry), however, if that is the choice they make then they should at least add enough abilities.

whhaaaa??? Rift's soul system is one of, if not the most intricate class systems I've played. Of the examples you cited in your post, WoW is pretty much the lowest common denominator of MMOs. In GW, your action bar was limited to 8 abilities! (Don't get me wrong, I really liked GW, but it wasn't a champion of class complexity.) My trooper in swtor used about 5 abilities total, but really, it was a waste of a gcd to use anything but grav rounds. My cleric here in Rift uses 25+ abilities easy.

RIFT frankly has the worst PvP of any of the post-Warcraft MMOs (that I have played). Games like Guild Wars (1), Warcraft and SW:TOR simply blow it out the water, as illustrated by the subscription numbers. I do like the design of the Warfronts themselves though, it's just everything else sucks. ;) I'm going to take a few screenies (for the MMO scrapbook), re-cancel my sub and get my backside back to the other MMOs. Maybe I will be back when RIFT goes free to play; I can't see it staying as a subscription based MMO another year (especially with TERA, GW2 and The Secret World coming out this year).

What subscription numbers? If you could link to some good data I'd be very interested in seeing it (seriously). And if they are actually blowing Rift out of the water, I really doubt the majority of WoW or SWTOR subs are in it for the pvp.

[Ax1om]

Eh, sounds the same... Either way no monthly fee, sounds to me like there won't be a whole lot of in game clean up. It takes a lot to run games and if Guildwars get overloaded with a bunch of people that don't pay... well I can only see bad things happening. I'm more curious as to why you got butt hurt over my comment since it really is free to play. It may not have a cash shop but it is still free to play, your trying to defend the difference between the two is just silly since ultimately they are both free to play.

By your logic every AAA gaming title with multiplayer focus such as battlefield, counterstrike, guildwars or starcraft has to suffer the same issues a typical poorly designed f2p browser game does. Monthly fee is a just an awful payment model - for the producers and the customers.

[HannonHellbringer]

By your logic every AAA gaming title with multiplayer focus such as battlefield, counterstrike, guildwars or starcraft has to suffer the same issues a typical poorly designed f2p browser game does. Monthly fee is a just an awful payment model - for the producers and the customers.

Monthly fees tend to go right back to helping clean up the game itself, by updates and hotfixes. This is done because the money is going to pay for more devs, better development and it puts a sort of pressure on them when numbers begin to drop to make things happen. In the games you've named before most have played and their were huge gaps between updates (if any), no hot fixes and the games had to go by copies sold in order to be able to make sequels, updates, expansions and so on. Don't get me wrong, I like me some FPS, but until they wised up and started handing out gear rewards, they were just time killing games and it was very annoying when some jerk with auto head shot mod would log into a counterstrike server you were on with no admins to ban them, remember that? That is why most MMO's have a monthly fee to help regulate and police the game so it can be enjoyable for everyone. My concern is that games with no sub fees will fall to the same thing as these games did like counterstrike, where there were no REAL policing, or rules just the wild west all over again. I'm probably just being dramatic, but I like the security this game brings and the constant flow of fixes, updates, and content it brings.