Arenas, why it's good and dispelling myths.

[Chase Payne]

First before you atuomatically post "OMG DAOC was better" without reading this big block of text, might as well adress a few common missconceptions:

Arena was a mistake, even Blizzard admitted it.
Not exactly, read it again Rob Pardo clearly said that he didn't want the game to verge between competitive PvP and PvE they were nerfing abilities that PvE players wouldn't understand why. He also states that the idea of arenas and esports was so popular, that's why they decided to "tact" it on to WoW rather than effeciently adding it. If they truly thought it was a mistake over all, why did they add rated BGS?

A paltry amount of players play Arena, so it's useless feature.
According to statistics, over 800K+ "active" teams exist in arena just for 2v2 alone in season 8.
Source: http://www.arenajunkies.com/tools/title-calculator/
*By blizzards definition active means, they played at-least 30% and 20 games.
Even if you where to assume that half of them were actually inactive because of the low limitations, that's still over 500k players. Take note this only counting 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 wasn't counted.

Arena destroys balance.
Wrong, arena just shows which class synergies to well or which class is doing too much burst damage. It doesn't magically make things unbalanced. More often than not... the classes that are overpowered in arena are also overpowered in mass scale PvP too.


Arenas only has over 500k Players because it's required for gear, titles and vanity awards.
This is a common misconception, but in season 8 had limited 2v2 rewards. There were no titles that season, and shoulders and tier weapons were impossible to get. If you wanted those, you had to play 3v3 or 5v5. By this conclussion, either more casual players played 2v2 arena or they enjoyed it overall. Quite often, you could 2v2 with your friend.

Arena promotes FOTM Builds, and impossible counters in equal elo rating.
You're right, which is why it should never award gear or any advantages other than vanity overall. However, it's not completely impossible for you to kill the enemy. The whole point of arena is to kill the people who have won just as much as you. Killing your counter shows how skilled you are.

If you want Arena, go back to World of Warcraft... I heard it's doing well over there.
It also did well in Guild Wars, and SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 both will support arena, Rift and Tera are really the only games without arena in reality. (For the next generation)

But I prefer World PvP, if they make Arena I will never see it again?
Which is why games like Guild Wars 2 will feature both, because they know what they're doing. If Ranked PvP awards no gear, you can have both.

Arena players just want too look like a special snowflake, and gank those who cant get it.
Nope, many arena players in this forum agree they could care less if no gear was awarded. The point of an arena is to face people within the same skill level as you, and PvP progression... not gear.

So if you were told you would get no gear, vanity, and even titles would you still play arena?
Absolutely, I could care less about what the rewards are, it's a progression for me to continually increase in rating and defeat challenging opponents.

I don't like arena.
What's the harm of adding arena if it doesn't harm the game overall?

PvE balance get's destroyed by arena
Scott Hartsman mentioned a feature in Rift to be able to nerf abilities only for PvP without harming PvE, we have yet to see this. But we assume if this ever came, all nerfs for arena would only be in arena... and nowhere else.


In the end, I play arena to progress. My opponents get harder, and I have to overcome difficult challenges consistently. I'm one of those "small" crowd of 500k players worldwide.

[krilly]

It's still really really boring compared to rvr, look I like gw1 arena but its not rvr, its not something i would pay a sub for,.its something you just hop on and play like say tf2. Also arena in GW works due to hard stat / gear capping.

I wouldn't hold out much hope for sw:tor pvp, at all.

[ZenoAsura]

I do agree with you, but the mmorpg class balance can't maintain a fairness for the competition at starting point. It's not "arena destroy balance ", it's the balance can not support arena. The class balance just can support a big scale casual pvp. If you take it serious , then sorry, it does not support.

[Ksp]

Arena was a mistake, even Blizzard admitted it.
Not exactly, read it again Rob Pardo clearly said that he didn't want the game to verge between competitive PvP and PvE they were nerfing abilities that PvE players wouldn't understand why. He also states that the idea of arenas and esports was so popular, that's why they decided to "tact" it on to WoW rather than effeciently adding it. If they truly thought it was a mistake over all, why did they add rated BGS?

Completely irrelevant to this game. An excuse used by anti-arena players that has no basis.

A paltry amount of players play Arena, so it's useless feature.
According to statistics, over 800K+ "active" teams exist in arena just for 2v2 alone in season 8.
Source: http://www.arenajunkies.com/tools/title-calculator/
*By blizzards definition active means, they played at-least 30% and 20 games.
Even if you where to assume that half of them were actually inactive because of the low limitations, that's still over 500k players. Take note this only counting 2v2, 3v3 and 5v5 wasn't counted.

As we've established in another thread, and you put in tiny lettering medicine-company-style, "active" does not at all mean they are actively playing arena or would switch to a game simply because of arena.

Arena destroys balance.
Wrong, arena just shows which class synergies to well or which class is doing too much burst damage. It doesn't magically make things unbalanced. More often than not... the classes that are overpowered in arena are also overpowered in mass scale PvP too.

It doesn't destroy balance, you're right. It puts the microscope on balance. It makes individual classes (or souls in this case) all the more overpowered or underpowered because of the situation they're in. Which makes making the game balanced impossible, because MMOs will inherently never be balanced unless classes are homogenized. At that point you run into the same problem Blizzard has, with spending inordinate amounts of time & resources on a function of the game that suits a minority.

Arena promotes FOTM Builds, and impossible counters in equal elo rating.
You're right, which is why it should never award gear or any advantages other than vanity overall. However, it's not completely impossible for you to kill the enemy. The whole point of arena is to kill the people who have won just as much as you. Killing your counter shows how skilled you are.

A counter at a competitive level is just that - a counter. If you're playing vs good or equal players, you simply cannot beat your counter. I can't remember offhand how many times my shaman ret hunter stomped the living hell out of RMPs because we countered them.

If you want Arena, go back to World of Warcraft... I heard it's doing well over there.
It also did well in Guild Wars, and SWTOR and Guild Wars 2 both will support arena, Rift and Tera are really the only games without arena in reality. (For the next generation)

Mentioning other games holds no basis in this game. As an overall business strategy, Trion would serve their company considerably better to pander to the majority - the zerg PvP people.

But I prefer World PvP, if they make Arena I will never see it again?
Which is why games like Guild Wars 2 will feature both, because they know what they're doing. If Ranked PvP awards no gear, you can have both.

This is a legitimate concern for those that want world PvP.

Arena players just want too look like a special snowflake, and gank those who cant get it.
Nope, many arena players in this forum agree they could care less if no gear was awarded. The point of an arena is to face people within the same skill level as you, and PvP progression... not gear.

So if you were told you would get no gear, vanity, and even titles would you still play arena?
Absolutely, I could care less about what the rewards are, it's a progression for me to continually increase in rating and defeat challenging opponents.

I would play it too without rewards too, I won't lie. But that doesn't make it a smart decision for this game company. It makes it what you want.

I don't like arena.
What's the harm of adding arena if it doesn't harm the game overall?

It does harm the game. It focuses too much time & resources on a function of the game the minority will spend time on actively. Not to mention it will hurt the longevity of the game simply because balance will never be good in arenas in this game, and it will be competing with an already stable arena system via wow.

PvE balance get's destroyed by arena
Scott Hartsman mentioned a feature in Rift to be able to nerf abilities only for PvP without harming PvE, we have yet to see this. But we assume if this ever came, all nerfs for arena would only be in arena... and nowhere else.

Assuming gets us nowhere.

This is coming from an avid WoW arena player. Since BC has come out, I have played no other game (besides HoN sometimes) other than WoW arenas. I haven't raided. I play simply to PvP - and I'm a multi time gladiator as well as for the course of 4 months the rank1 hunter in the world, holding the #1 3s/5s in the world, and the #1 2s in my BG. I do enjoy arenas. I would play them in this game. But it is a terrible decision to implement them as a serious ladder-based game.

The only way I would say arenas would be good in this game, is if they added a (no ladder) system where you group up, do a command line ie /battle x player, and it faces you against that players team on your server only. This would serve to strengthen server relations, competitiveness, and rivalries. And the only way this could ever survive in Rift, is if they made it abundantly clear from the very beginning that while this option exists, it is in no way a major part of the game, and will not serve as any basis for Class Balance.

[Kirth]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...ere-a-mistake/

Thats the game developer himself describing how much arenas ruined wow.

[Catskills]

Your next-gen games are all wrong.

Tera & RIFT are not next-gen (No matter how they call themselves that, they are not next gen. Today's Next-gen MMORPG requires havoc modelling, proper hit and character detections, stunning graphics that are cost efficient to your computer, support for massive combat etc). GW2, Blizzard's Project Titan and Archeage are examples of next-gen.

Also, no, arena's are not a proper PvP concept, and never will be. MMORPG's are about "massive" restricting the fights into designated groups of less than 10 people isn't what MMORPG's are about, for such games, you should play a game that is online RPG (Such as Nox's concept was).

Also Arena's often remove all the real components of Pvp, such as consumables and long cool down skills.

Also any rated system can be exploited in MMORPG's.

OP is obviously what we call "Today's MMORPG monkey" who has only played MMORPG's of the new EQ model (which's flagship namely is World of Warcraft). And has not touched MMORPG's of real massive warfare, player controlled world where players actions truly matter with FREEDOM OF CHOICE and CONSEQUENCES OF YOUR ACTIONS (I.e. Ultima Online, Shadowbane). Those are MMORPG's, restricting stuff into instances only means a. Bad MMORPG engine. b. Bad MMORPG design that caters to today's monkeys.

To op, I don't mean to bash you, but I'd say upcoming Diablo III will be more of a game for your liking. Same I state to everyone who loves arena. Those who actually like MMORPG's with real PvP, I suggest checking out Archeage, where PvP will be about random PK'ing, sieges, naval warfare and real conquest with real consequences of doing stuff. Player controlled freedom & world is what MMORPG's should be about. And after Archeage comes out, its our turn again. Play to CRUSH! Those who like simulated instanced "PvP" can stay here.

In addition, having "Arena ratings" will make people assume that Arena is the true calculator of players skills. The concept in MMORPG's used to be word-to-mouth. If you truly where the biggest most badass barbarian, people would fear your name. It had never anything to do with a ****ing simulated rating which is always time based. Nowadays, it is.

[daays]

There is a reason people don't like arenas.

They have a loser.

Wanna know why people enjoy world PvP and zerg v zerg combat? Because there is never a loser.

Get ganked with your friend 1v2? You didn't lose cause you didn't try.
Get ganked at 1v1? You didn't lose cause you didn't have "X" cool down.
Get ganked 1v1? You didn't lose cause you were at "X" health

Get zerged? You didn't lose cause you got zerged
Get zerged? You didn't lose cause you managed to kill lots of their players before you died.


In anything rated, people have to lose.
In anything with sieges/world pvp, there is no loser.

That's really the only thing behind it. You can just read everyone's post about why they think rated PvP is "bad, awful, terrible", apply the above, and see the underlying message on why they hate it.

[Jaixen]

I fully support Arena- the only ppl who claim it's bad for any game are the crybaby WoW PvE junkies who are afraid of Fair pvp combat.

With the dynamics of this games class system though, they could only really implement a 4-5 man arena bracket.

Arena's also take about a quarter the development time than an RvR zone. I support RvR too but there is no reason not to give both in this game.

[June]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...ere-a-mistake/

Thats the game developer himself describing how much arenas ruined wow.

Clever bastards, so basically we know Blizzard next MMO is going to have it. SC2 is already very competitive. They just want no-one copy it.

Ive already quitted Rift. PVP just isnt my kind of at all, even Im going to miss Rift alot otherwise. But one thing I can assure if they choos to make RvR zones they're in world of trouble.

[Jaixen]

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...ere-a-mistake/

Thats the game developer himself describing how much arenas ruined wow.

No where in his quote did he say Arenas ruined wow... lolol... he simply said they did not implement good enough and that they just slapped in on their game and went with it. The biggest reasons why their quick arena implementation caused alot of problems is because they put in 2's and 3's brackets instead of just a 5v5 bracket. In 2's and 3's it's hard to balance without homogenizing classes but in 5v5 it's easier to balance the classes around that large of a group format.

Anyone with any knowledge at all about how arenas are doing and work in WOW would understand where the problem roots from and that's tiny sized arena brackets "2v2/3v3".

[Jaixen]

Clever bastards, so basically we know Blizzard next MMO is going to have it. SC2 is already very competitive. They just want no-one copy it.

Ive already quitted Rift. PVP just isnt my kind of at all, even Im going to miss Rift alot otherwise. But one thing I can assure if they choos to make RvR zones they're in world of trouble.

Can't really understand your english well.

But yes.. blizzard knows they have a jewel in the MMO industry -I mean more players participate in arena on World of Warcraft than the majority of MMO's have in their entire playerbase. That right there tells you it's quite popular among the MMO PvP crowd.

[June]

Can't really understand your english well.

But yes.. blizzard knows they have a jewel in the MMO industry -I mean more players participate in arena on World of Warcraft than the majority of MMO's have in their entire playerbase. That right there tells you it's quite popular among the MMO PvP crowd.

What did say? Speak english? BUt yeah quite popular among Blizzard fans doesnt mean ****. Dont freaking even think that ******.

[Auchter]

We get it - you keep spamming the forums about how you want arenas. The majority of the players don't. The majority of wow players don't.

You want arenas you know where to go.

[Jaixen]

We get it - you keep spamming the forums about how you want arenas. The majority of the players don't. The majority of wow players don't.

You want arenas you know where to go.

All trion has to do is send out an in Game survey and title it what do you like in pvp..

Throw Arena's on there and see where it takes you. I gaurantee you the majority of PvP'rs LIKE arena. Every one of the guys I xfered with loves to arena as well as the majority of my new guild on this game.

Simple survey could be-

What is your main preference in MMO's

PvE only ????? PvP only ?????? PvP/PVE

That will separate the pvp/pve crowds


Then ask, how much do you like RVR??? scale 1-10

How much do you like Arena??? scale 1-10

Etc.

[Auchter]

All trion has to do is send out an in Game survey and title it what do you like in pvp..

Throw Arena's on there and see where it takes you. I gaurantee you the majority of PvP'rs LIKE arena. Every one of the guys I xfered with loves to arena as well as the majority of my new guild on this game.

.

I guarantee you they don't. The majority of players i was with in WOW, WAR and here disliked it. The few who played it did so because it was easier to get gear that way - they did the bare minimum per week and treated it as about as much fun as a rep grind.