SW:TOR Going F2P In the Fall

[Polynikes]

Reason I quit SWTOR was because of the cut scenes during dungeons where you had to wait what seemed like an eternity for people with bad connections to make a decision. I have limited play time and it got old quick and just quit terrible design .....

[Dalenaria]

I played for 4 months and quit because it wasn't ready for release. With no macros, no weather, no guild set-up, no end-game, half-finished instances, galaxy-wide waist deep water, and massive, multiple loading screens (turning in a quest from the space port to hoth meant 6 different loading screens, one-way), the game wasn't ready for release. Maybe they can polish it up with the f2p.

[Caydin]

Good thing you had Rift to fall back on, which totally doesn't have three-button macro classes lying around.

Good thing, indeed, as there were plenty of unique healing spells in Rift that allowed me to easily respond to situations, rather than just two heals, two hots, a shield and an AoE heal. I had more tools in a basic Chloromancer spec than I had with a Sage, and I could easily make it more complex and efficient if I felt like it. However, what you said had nothing to do with my complaint. Healing with a Sage felt like healing with a Priest from WoW, except missing 3/4ths of the healing spells. The classes, in general, felt very limited; there just weren't that many spells, so things quickly fell into routine.

It didn't help that the Sage's story felt uninspired. I played as a Dark side Jedi, and so I just felt like this story just didn't... work. My character had to sacrifice her life energy to save these Jedi, and I didn't want to do that. So I just killed them. And I did not get in trouble for this. My character would have, at the tip of a hat, killed off anyone who got in her way, and yet the Jedi council did not condemn me in any way.

I could have rolled another character, but by that time, I'd already grown frustrated with the game. The most irritating being when the game resurrected me during a PvP match, but then sealed me in the starting point, and then proceeded to kick me. I believe that was the last time I logged into the game.

[Maverick827]

Good thing, indeed, as there were plenty of unique healing spells in Rift that allowed me to easily respond to situations, rather than just two heals, two hots, a shield and an AoE heal. I had more tools in a basic Chloromancer spec than I had with a Sage, and I could easily make it more complex and efficient if I felt like it. However, what you said had nothing to do with my complaint. Healing with a Sage felt like healing with a Priest from WoW, except missing 3/4ths of the healing spells. The classes, in general, felt very limited; there just weren't that many spells, so things quickly fell into routine.

It didn't help that the Sage's story felt uninspired. I played as a Dark side Jedi, and so I just felt like this story just didn't... work. My character had to sacrifice her life energy to save these Jedi, and I didn't want to do that. So I just killed them. And I did not get in trouble for this. My character would have, at the tip of a hat, killed off anyone who got in her way, and yet the Jedi council did not condemn me in any way.

I could have rolled another character, but by that time, I'd already grown frustrated with the game. The most irritating being when the game resurrected me during a PvP match, but then sealed me in the starting point, and then proceeded to kick me. I believe that was the last time I logged into the game.

I really can't take you seriously when you say that SWTOR classes didn't have that many abilities. I haven't played a cleric much in Rift, so maybe they get more abilities than other classes, but on my Warrior right now I'm using 16 button slots, whereas my Sith Warrior had to use about twice as much as that.

And yeah, that bug in SWTOR was annoying. I've been randomly kicked from Warfronts in Rift, but I didn't quit the game because of it.

[Laeris]

Hi Laeris, how are you today --> lets start nice aye ;)

So:
Swtor sold millions and millions. I dont think there has ever been an MMO that sold this many boxes on launch, that has been this succesfull. pure number wise. There were more the a million pre-orders :|, I even think it were over 2 million, but I am not sure about that
So no, they did not sell to few boxes. and no they had not to few subs. At the beginning offcourse.
Please dont turn your opinion into facts.

What I said wasn't an opinion. You don't lay off 2/3 of your dev team to include the upper level management and announce F2P because you sold enough boxes... regardless how many records they broke. They spent nearly half a billion dollars on the game and didn't make enough in sales to offset costs. Not opinion. Fact.

For example:

2.5 million times 59.99 (average cost for US new box) = $149,975,000 USD. That's retail price. They only get around 1/4 of retail price on physical boxes. LucasArts takes 1/3 of all profits per the contract with their IP. Sooo... after LA takes their share, you're looking at around 100,000,000 USD in revenue at full retail. Minus the retail fees, the actual number that BioWare put into their pockets is lower than that. It could be anywhere from 50 to 75 million USD after adjustments (digital sales through Origin have a higher rate of return than physical sales).

Merely erring on the side of ludicrous and saying they made 100 million off of launch sales (and they didn't) still only recoups 1/4 to 1/5 of the development budget. We have to remember that EA execs said they planned to unset WoW as the number 1 MMO. They were shooting for 8 to 10 million. They sold 2 million.

What I said wasn't opinion. Launch was a massive financial failure of the worst kind and without doubt the worst in MMO history. They missed their internal projections by 80%. They're in the shape they are now because they're still massively behind their costs and haven't made a single penny in profit yet.

[Laeris]

With 500k users pulling in 89.9 million USD per year (60 million after LA takes their share per the contract with the IP), it would take them roughly 5 years to equal what EA's marketing team spent on pre launch advertising in its various forms.

Do you see now the egregious mismanagement EA put SWTOR through? You could have the best game in the world with SWTOR and it wouldn't matter. They grossly over-spent and their subscription forecasts were woefully unrealistic.

The only reason it is still a live game is because EA can afford to run at a loss for a while because they're have billions in cash reserves. As of now, SWTOR is still a few hundred million dollars in the red.

Of course, none of these numbers I'm listing are accurate. They don't take into account ongoing costs like payroll, maintenance fees and the like. Just running off of pure, untaxed revenue they're YEARS from seeing any real profit unless they change something and get more people. Hence, F2P. If it doesn't work in the first 6-12 months they'll cancel the game.

[NearioNL]

What I said wasn't an opinion. You don't lay off 2/3 of your dev team to include the upper level management and announce F2P because you sold enough boxes... regardless how many records they broke. They spent nearly half a billion dollars on the game and didn't make enough in sales to offset costs. Not opinion. Fact.

For example:

2.5 million times 59.99 (average cost for US new box) = $149,975,000 USD. That's retail price. They only get around 1/4 of retail price on physical boxes. LucasArts takes 1/3 of all profits per the contract with their IP. Sooo... after LA takes their share, you're looking at around 100,000,000 USD in revenue at full retail. Minus the retail fees, the actual number that BioWare put into their pockets is lower than that. It could be anywhere from 50 to 75 million USD after adjustments (digital sales through Origin have a higher rate of return than physical sales).

Merely erring on the side of ludicrous and saying they made 100 million off of launch sales (and they didn't) still only recoups 1/4 to 1/5 of the development budget. We have to remember that EA execs said they planned to unset WoW as the number 1 MMO. They were shooting for 8 to 10 million. They sold 2 million.

What I said wasn't opinion. Launch was a massive financial failure of the worst kind and without doubt the worst in MMO history. They missed their internal projections by 80%. They're in the shape they are now because they're still massively behind their costs and haven't made a single penny in profit yet.

They did not aim for 8-10 million on lauch. they aimed for it over the course of years, and even that they did not say. They said they wanted to become nb1, dont need 8-10 million for that:
the game was flooded with ex-wow players. iow: if they made a good mmo, they would prob suffice with 5million to become nb1. If you sell 2.5million on launch, you would easily reach 5million in a year, or maybe 2 years. Easily!!
Offcourse, like I said before, Swtor wasnt a good mmo and thus it would not have been reached. If they just made a good mmo, like most expected, then all goals would have been reached.
2.5million on launch is a fantastic result. If you think they ever thought to sell 5-10million on launch you are clearly deluted.
Beside they turned F2P because to many of the players who bought the game felt it wasnt good enough.
Got nothing to do with the sold boxes! they never expected that they would make a profit by only selling boxes, its about keeping your subs

beside you point this out, I can point out that EA already stated that the game would be profitable with 500k of subs. Seeing that they go F2P now, with more then 500k subs, I find it hard to believe those words. So why believe the other words what they say, but you will offcourse only point out the things they said when they are positive for the point you try to make

[Khelendross]

They did not aim for 8-10 million on lauch. they aimed for it over the course of years, and even that they did not say. They said they wanted to become nb1, dont need 8-10 million for that:
the game was flooded with ex-wow players. iow: if they made a good mmo, they would prob suffice with 5million to become nb1. If you sell 2.5million on launch, you would easily reach 5million in a year, or maybe 2 years. Easily!!
Offcourse, like I said before, Swtor wasnt a good mmo and thus it would not have been reached. If they just made a good mmo, like most expected, then all goals would have been reached.
2.5million on launch is a fantastic result. If you think they ever thought to sell 5-10million on launch you are clearly deluted.
Beside they turned F2P because to many of the players who bought the game felt it wasnt good enough.
Got nothing to do with the sold boxes! they never expected that they would make a profit by only selling boxes, its about keeping your subs

beside you point this out, I can point out that EA already stated that the game would be profitable with 500k of subs. Seeing that they go F2P now, with more then 500k subs, I find it hard to believe those words. So why believe the other words what they say, but you will offcourse only point out the things they said when they are positive for the point you try to make

That number of 500k subs was before they spent 500 million on marketing (before the game launched). SWTOR needed to maintain about 1.2 million subs to break even in year 1 from insider estimates. They probably felt that was achievable, and it probably would have been if the game was extremely solid. But it wasn't.

[NearioNL]

That number of 500k subs was before they spent 500 million on marketing (before the game launched). SWTOR needed to maintain about 1.2 million subs to break even in year 1 from insider estimates. They probably felt that was achievable, and it probably would have been if the game was extremely solid. But it wasn't.

500k was mentioned not long before launch. at least in holland.
Marketing cost should have been known by then. but ok I said it in the info that I knew about.
still the initial point: "the game did not sell enough" just isnt correct, no matter how you look at it
"the game isnt a good enough mmo" is something I can agree on though

[Jawsnap]

Well that was fast. They are putting quite the spin on it too lol.
Sorry but this is not a logical direction for the game. If your intentions were F2P from the start then that's how you would have started.
So dishonest.

Perfect business tactics. Give people something in exchange for cash. Reap an immediate return on the money you initially spent on the product. Make it free to use with pay-for-benefit features and enjoy the profits with minimum work.

[SanguineDeath]

Well that was fast. They are putting quite the spin on it too lol.
Sorry but this is not a logical direction for the game. If your intentions were F2P from the start then that's how you would have started.
So dishonest.

Dude, we ARE talking about EA - i.e., "The Kiss of Death..." Nuff said...

[SanguineDeath]

I don't think SWTOR was a bad game. The story driven group dungeons and class story lines are things they did very well.

In the year 2012 F2P doesn't mean 'fail' anymore. In fact it was a smart move for SWTOR to go F2P while they still had a healthy population in relation to most MMOs on the market now. It's hard for pay-to-play games to compete with so many high quality free-to-play games on the market. Don't be surprised if Rift goes free-to-play some point within the next year.

Sorry have to drastically disagree with you. What reason would Trion make Rift F2P??? They're coming out with a new xpan. Ppl aren't leaving in droves like in TOR. The game uses a great gaming engine: Gamebryo and not that 20 year old piece of garbage Hero engine. In Rift, I can interact with other ppl - yes, I can EXPLORE areas - it's NOT ON RAILS!! And to be totally honest, Rift is fun and TOR is just meh... Plus there're aren't 101 bugs walking across my screen in Rift like in TOR and oh did I mention CS ACTUALLY EXISTS in Rift unlike that OTHER game. But those are just my humble thoughts...

[SanguineDeath]

Mind me asking what exactly this claim is based? The majority of people I've ever come across who play MMORPGs generally have a pretty positive opinion of Rift, even if they didn't necessarily get into the game themselves. Trion have built up a really solid reputation, and most people seem to recognise their hard work.

Agree with Enzo. When I first came to Rift, I thought it was another WoW clone... But after playing, I realized that sure it has a lot of similarities - what games don't these days - right??? But Rift really has a nice charm all to its own and I just love the gaming engine - the areas are beautiful; like Nagrand in WoW. Plus after all this time I've played Rift, I always find new things to do; I'm lazy and put off a lot of stuff or rotate or create new toons I play to have fun. If I like the game, then I'll play it. Hell, I'm playing EQ2 and that's "old" lol. And I really love the soul system and looking forward to SL when it comes out.

[Laeris]

Offcourse, like I said before, Swtor wasnt a good mmo and thus it would not have been reached. If they just made a good mmo, like most expected, then all goals would have been reached.
2.5million on launch is a fantastic result. If you think they ever thought to sell 5-10million on launch you are clearly deluted.
Beside they turned F2P because to many of the players who bought the game felt it wasnt good enough.
Got nothing to do with the sold boxes! they never expected that they would make a profit by only selling boxes, its about keeping your subs

beside you point this out, I can point out that EA already stated that the game would be profitable with 500k of subs. Seeing that they go F2P now, with more then 500k subs, I find it hard to believe those words. So why believe the other words what they say, but you will offcourse only point out the things they said when they are positive for the point you try to make

EA can say whatever they want. Math says otherwise. They say they would have been fine on 500,000 subs. Before Lucas Arts takes their cut, that is 7.5 million dollars PER YEAR. 625k per month. You can't support a game that cost over 200 million just in dev costs on 7.5 million per year. Every analyst who's weighed in on this in print media has estimated at least 400 million total cost. In retrospect, Rift spent a little over 50 million pre launch and doubled their money in the first year while posting over 100 million in revenue.

According to Blizzard, their initial cost to deploy World of Warcraft was 63 million.
SWTOR = 400+ million. They spent over 6x more money on SWTOR than Blizzard did on WoW and are at about the same place sub-wise as Rift was at this time during its life cycle.

You're also misunderstanding what it means for a game to be profitable in business terms. It merely means that at 500k subs, they may have been able to make enough revenue to pay the bare minimum on their debt payments and still afford to be able to employ some people to work on the game. It is deemed profitable as they are able to meet their financial obligations. Funcom uses the same lingo with Age of Conan. Prior to TSW's launch, they listed AoC as the prime source of revenue for Funcom and labeled it as profitable while the company was losing upwards of at least 2-3 million per quarter for 3 straight years. The company itself posted 0 dollars in profit from 2010 to early 2012 but still had a "profitable" game.

http://www.computerandvideogames.com...cial-disaster/

Read that article and insert SWTOR every time you see Tabula Rasa and you'll note how eerily similar the situations are. NCSoft way overspent the development and had erroneously forecasted unrealistic revenue for the game. Tabula Rasa only made 1/4 the expected revenue they "thought" it should have. The game died. SWTOR is in almost the exact same position with the exact same issues driving the layoffs as outlined in that article.