SW:TOR Going F2P In the Fall

[Maverick827]

I would guess that SW:ToR is likely to be down to 200,000 or fewer subscribed accounts before Rift is, at this point. :P

They're actually somewhere between 500k and 1 million (though definitely below 1 million). I guess I can't even count on you to be mature and civil in a SWTOR thread now a days, which is honestly disappointing.

Quick question: do you people actually believe that I do not like Rift, or think that it's a bad game?

[NearioNL]

Yes and they started exploring F2P early on because they didn't sell nearly enough boxes and gain nearly enough subs to maintain the game due to the massive overhead costs they incurred. People at EA didn't wake up one day and go, "You know, we should lay off a ton of people. I feel kinda saucy!"

Hi Laeris, how are you today --> lets start nice aye ;)

So:
Swtor sold millions and millions. I dont think there has ever been an MMO that sold this many boxes on launch, that has been this succesfull. pure number wise. There were more the a million pre-orders :|, I even think it were over 2 million, but I am not sure about that
So no, they did not sell to few boxes. and no they had not to few subs. At the beginning offcourse.
Please dont turn your opinion into facts.

Now it is possible, and highly believable, that BioArts already did think about a F2P(Freemium, or whatever) possibility for Swtor. IMO a good company always thinks of multiple strategies in case their main strategie fails. Thinking of it up front does not mean you prepare the game for it up front.
I cannot possible imagine that companies like EA/BW/LucasArts deliberately f*ck with an IP such as Star Wars. They f*cked up, thats true. It is not near the game it should have been, thats true also. but that is something totally different.
The game was wayyyyy to long worked on, it should have been released 2-3 years ago. The game is released to late, postponed to many times. 2-3 years ago it would have been a hit, not only the first 2 months but for possible years to come. Why? Easy: 2-3 years we demanded less from MMO's then now.
EA/BW didnt expect "small" companys like Trion, for example, to be able to create an AAA-MMO(among a few things. patch-system which EA uses would have been more accepted back then also, etc). Which was indeed impossible when they started with the development of Swtor.

Did the game lack things on release? Hell yes, but we knew that in beta already
Is their patching system laughable and totally out of time(even patching a whole ****ing saturday)? Hell yes
Did the game had unbelievable annoying bugs? Hell yes, You no give me loot you unfair raid boss-mob dude! grrrrr(but so does Rift, and Skyrim)
Did the game forgot about endgame? Hell yes, or you must enjoy /faceroll raids(I play not near enough PvP to judge that)
Would I've been here if the Swtor was a great MMO? Offcourse not, which should imply that I dont find Swtor a great or even good MMO.
Did BioArts and LucasArts think to easy over this mmo? Most likely.
BUT
It was a good game, the leveling was great, the story was good, the world was perfect, it gave you the exact feeling KOTOR gave you(which was exactly what they wanted), the game could have been called KOTOR3 and we would all have loved it......... if it was not a MMO.

So YES there is enough to bash BioArts. There is enough to blame them for f*cking up a potential top-game. They had all the ingredients, just not the right chefs.
Offcourse some might disagree, and those people are most likely still subbed to the game.
But the claims you make are unfounded, and purely opinion based

and for the record:
The game still enjoyed me for between the 300 and 500 hours(dont know exact figures, should check at 1 september)

[Annalea]

It was a good game, the leveling was great, the story was good, the world was perfect, it gave you the exact feeling KOTOR gave you(which was exactly what they wanted), the game could have been called KOTOR3 and we would all have loved it......... if it was not a MMO.

I'd disagree with this, actually. For me, personally, I felt it was pretty sub-par what I would expect of a single player game. It had its gems interspersed about (it did include what is likely my favourite interpretation of Nar Shadaa), but... all in all, I simply was not impressed. I felt as though it has shreds of what I'd expect from single player experience that were thinly spread and strung together by relatively uninspired quests.

I played it and what I did enjoy of it was largely from the Star Wars factor. It felt pretty awesome zapping people with lightning! There's only so much of that I can really do, however.

When I 'go back' to it once it's F2P, it won't be for the game, the storyline or even the PvP. I'll be going back for a medium that enables some impromptu Star Wars roleplay.

[Maverick827]

I'd disagree with this, actually. For me, personally, I felt it was pretty sub-par what I would expect of a single player game.

What did you feel was sub par? The plot? The characterization? The dialog? The themes?

What would you say are examples of good video game stories (relatively modern day examples, preferably, otherwise we need to go off on a tangent on how to compare the storytelling aspects of pre-voice or even pre-graphic games to modern day games)?

[TedO]

So rather then keep going thru this "my game is bigger then your game".....and "TORs fail is bigger then your fail".....

Both games has aspects that others enjoyed or not, Rift has gone thru some growing pains of its own, lets not fool ourselves. Has EA/Bioware dropped the ball?...perhaps....is it salvagable?.....again, perhaps.

With the current trends leaning towards the f2p with pay to play content, its still altogether possible TOR can make somewhat of a rebound. Why is it when people wish to indulge in discourse its needed to throw haymakers at each other like this is some kind of bar brawl, rather then agree to disagree? I mean seriously, even "facts" can be subjective, dependent on your point of view/perspective. Its as if some kind of school yard sophomoric BS keeps coming out without any end in sight.

Just because someone didnt enjoy an aspect of a game does'nt mean that another person didn't. Its why the MMO market is so prolific these days, diversity.

[Vera]

Words, and;

Best not forget all the awards Rift and Trion have garnered as well since launch

How many times have you had to tell people unfamiliar with MMOs that Rift is "like world of Warcraft", because they've never heard of it?

[NearioNL]

I'd disagree with this, actually. For me, personally, I felt it was pretty sub-par what I would expect of a single player game. It had its gems interspersed about (it did include what is likely my favourite interpretation of Nar Shadaa), but... all in all, I simply was not impressed. I felt as though it has shreds of what I'd expect from single player experience that were thinly spread and strung together by relatively uninspired quests.

I played it and what I did enjoy of it was largely from the Star Wars factor. It felt pretty awesome zapping people with lightning! There's only so much of that I can really do, however.

When I 'go back' to it once it's F2P, it won't be for the game, the storyline or even the PvP. I'll be going back for a medium that enables some impromptu Star Wars roleplay.

Thats all fine offcourse This is all opinion based :P we cant all like the same things ;)
When people start making their opinions facts, thats when I disagree by principle ;)

Offcourse if swtor would have been released as a singleplayer game, then it would be worthless.
I played it as a MMO, and I like it. untill Iwas lv50. and for me a MMO starts at end level :P

How many times have you had to tell people unfamiliar with MMOs that Rift is "like world of Warcraft", because they've never heard of it?

I say this about Rift and Swtor. and will even use this for GW2. Not because it is similar to WoW, but because I have more non-gamer friends then gamer friends

[Annalea]

What did you feel was sub par? The plot? The characterization? The dialog? The themes?

The plots themselves, by and large, had good concepts behind them. Soldier and Inquisitor stick out in my mind as to that! However, I felt the execution tended to be a touch awkward. Alongside that, the Dark/Light choices were more novelty than anything impacting... though, that's more a complaint against KotOR in general, I'll admit.

What I mean by the aforementioned awkward execution is the actual storytelling, which I believe to be the weakest side of things. Most of the Inquisitor storyline quests felt to be thinly-veiled fetch quests. You go get one artifact of power to discover you need another artifact of power! To discover you need some more artifacts of power (at least loosely speakling, as I don't want to give away the more interesting plot points for anyone who intends to play through the Inquisitor plot in the future). Now, simple 'fetch quests' can be built into a rather powerful story! However, when your means of fleshing out this story are through your standard MMO questing system, it falls short.

The gameplay itself is fine for an MMO (and I'd likely give it a solid 7/10 in the MMO arena) -- but I didn't think it made for a very good storytelling medium. In fact, the MMO content was fairly lacklustre itself, the only Flashpoints I found to be anything interesting being the first ones that you come across on either Republic or Imperial. After that, they seem to lose quite a bit of design and polish.

I think the best way to summarise it all up: for me, it lacks the meat to be a full-course single player meal and lacks the substance for a satisfying MMO. It offers one of the most successful hybridisations out there, no mistake! I simply did not find it compelling enough to justify putting in substantial amounts of time into it; if I want an MMO, I'll play an MMO. If I want a single player experience, I'll play a single player game. The appeal of having an 'all-in-one' package at the expense of achieving quality in one regard or another just isn't there for me!

What would you say are examples of good video game stories (relatively modern day examples, preferably, otherwise we need to go off on a tangent on how to compare the storytelling aspects of pre-voice or even pre-graphic games to modern day games)?

One of my favourites would be Bastion.

If you're after something more of the standard RPG-cinematic-cutscene-with-dialogue format, I would propose the Mass Effect series (with my own imagined ending, mind you).

And, because you mention the comparison of storytelling devices in modern vs classic games, Planescape Torment. The primary goal of any good storyteller is to make their story come to life using their chosen medium. In this aging game (which I first played through about a year ago now), text is one of the major means of conveying the story and... as a roleplayer, I actually had to play this game with a little journal next to me so that I could write any phrase that I particularly liked. And I still use many of the ideas I gained from doing this in my RP as recent as two nights ago!

[NearioNL]

snip
the only Flashpoints I found to be anything interesting being the first ones that you come across on either Republic or Imperial. After that, they seem to lose quite a bit of design and polish.

Didnt you enjoy the flashpoint they added later on. with the ghouls? I forgot the name, but you mostly wear headlights.
Personally i found that one very enjoyable. Though I must admit I did quit not long after, and thus I havent played this flashpoint again and again and again, as you would do when you would continue to play.
Also I must admit I havent done most flashpoint multiple times(at least no more then a few times), there was no real need because gearing up was so easy and fast. I do however liked most flashpoints, although the first is the best. With the first you really got the feeling of being an Empire/Republic strike team.

Offcourse opinions cant be debated
just curious though ;)

[Annalea]

Didnt you enjoy the flashpoint they added later on. with the ghouls? I forgot the name, but you mostly wear headlights.
Personally i found that one very enjoyable. Though I must admit I did quit not long after, and thus I havent played this flashpoint again and again and again, as you would do when you would continue to play.
Also I must admit I havent done most flashpoint multiple times(at least no more then a few times), there was no real need because gearing up was so easy and fast. I do however liked most flashpoints, although the first is the best. With the first you really got the feeling of being an Empire/Republic strike team.

Offcourse opinions cant be debated
just curious though ;)

I had actually quit before that one came out, I'm sad to say! I did do Flashpoints multiple times, though it wasn't quite so necessary - I just wanted the cool outfits that dropped from them. But, I don't know. Something about them just didn't make them for for me.

[NearioNL]

I had actually quit before that one came out, I'm sad to say! I did do Flashpoints multiple times, though it wasn't quite so necessary - I just wanted the cool outfits that dropped from them. But, I don't know. Something about them just didn't make them for for me.

ahh you missed out then, but hmm you will see in september I quess
I do get your drift. Somethng was lacking. In Rift I dont care if I run 1 dungeons multiple times in a row, especially not right after launch. with swtor this was not the same, cant say what is was though.
maybe I know in september :P

[Vera]

Some of the dialogue was brilliant. Early in my foray into SWTOR, I made this video:

http://youtu.be/jOVGHy1rf2s


Look at how dead my character looks. Compared to the eyes on my character in Rift, it looks terrible. And kind of creepy. And although the dialogue is amusing, listen to how stilted some of the dialogue sounds.

Ultimately, it was the same, predictable ******** we expected. You betray people, your master betrays you. Oh. I didn't see that one coming. Friends becoming enemies, enemies becoming friends, and everyone gains something through the experience. Yawn.

Next time, just give me the quest and tell me which type of mobs I need to kill, or which item I need to collect. I don't need your life story.

P.S. Spoilers - like the fact that the game sucks.

[Slipmat]

Well if this article is true and not a rumour, Bioware founders Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka might have left or be in the process of leaving the company:

Star Wars - The Old Republic is suffering from a shrinking subscriber base. An optional switch to F2P in autumn is supposed to turn things around. And in May, for the second time, several employees of Bioware Austin have been let go in a "restructuring effort". Another bad news could be that Bioware founders Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka might have left Bioware or could be in the process of leaving – possibly because of the limited success of the MMO that started as a challenger of WoW. Greg seems to have left Bioware in May 2012, see his LinkedIn-Profile.
A trustworthy source has been told by an employee of Bioware Austin yesterday that neither Greg Zeschuk nor Ray Muzyka have been present at a Bioware Company Meeting in Austin, Texas, just a few days ago. The employee claimed that this has not been the case before at such a meeting. The six others members of Bioware Austin's leadership have been there. Also, Greg Zeschuk has not been seen for several weeks now, the Bioware Austin employee claims. This would fit Greg Zeschuk's LinkedIn Profile, which still mentions Greg's role as Bioware co-founder "1995 until present" – but "co-founder" is not a job position.

There are supposed to be internal rumours at Bioware Austin that Ray Muzyka (pictured left) and Greg Zeschuk have left Bioware. According to our source, some employees at Bioware Austin fear that the company will be transformed into EA Austin. Also, one employee fears that without Greg Zeschuk and Ray Muzyka, internal pressure on Bioware Austin could increase.

Please note that we do not have official confirmation for this news, it is a rumour.

So far a rumour, but no smoke with fire

Source: http://www.gamersglobal.de/news/5654...-bioware-2-upd

[Fujitasix]

I have great doubt with EA's broad figure of over 500k and under 1mil. Maybe gifting everyone a free month stretched their initial 6 month subscribers into this report.

I wish them luck - TOR needs a massive amount of refinement that it probably won't ever receive.

[Ropeadope]

What did you feel was sub par? The plot? The characterization? The dialog? The themes?

What would you say are examples of good video game stories (relatively modern day examples, preferably, otherwise we need to go off on a tangent on how to compare the storytelling aspects of pre-voice or even pre-graphic games to modern day games)?

Ever since getting past the tutorial story bits in the beginning I felt like I was playing a single player game with an auction house. Overall it just felt like they were trying to do too much with - too much single player story aspects getting in the way of the MMO, and too much MMO in the mix that distracts from the story.

PvP felt like a mishmash of half done things as well (which I'm willing to go easy on since I only had an active account for the first month it was released). The whole not being able to queue for whatever playfield you wanted was a bit lame, I thought. The resolve meter and how they handled diminishing returns was kind of interesting for a bit until you figured out how to break it and use it to your advantage to make capping objectives trivially easy.

Can't say anything about the legacy system as it wasn't out at launch, but character customization-wise it had the same downfalls as wow. 3 talent trees and no dual spec/spec switching made me feel pretty limited in how I play my character. Perhaps if they let you have one spec on both classes your overall character could be, it would have been more interesting (say... have 1 Juggernaut spec and 1 Sith Marauder spec you could swap at will, and pay to individually respec).

The PvE was pretty mind numbingly easy at launch, unlike Rift's downright painful expert dungeons (still, comparing both games at launch). DSM could take a whole raid night, and everyone would be fine with it.

I guess that's about it (any by that I mean pretty much everything). In closing, they probably should have just made a KOTOR 3 and saved themselves a lot of headache and money (and jobs at that!). I think it would have been more enjoyable for quite a few people. This whole flavor of the month MMO thing is getting pretty old, honestly