Eve Online: The mittani removed from CSM despite record 10,000+ votes!

[Tolmos]

A quick googling will show he views being a "Bad guy" as a positive thing because he once viewed himself as such in Darkfall as a part of the group Evil Bastages, he recognizes Goons are the same sort of entity but that doesn't mean he likes them.

Also Darius hated pubbies(no goons) far far more than any other leader Goonswarm has had.

lmao are you even trying? I stated in THIS THREAD that I was with EB, and not in Darkfall but in Shadowbane. FFS, at least go read the first 2 pages of the thread before you start posting lol

You and Zyzyx are amusing posters, I'll give you that. Two peas in a pod, as the expression goes. =D

On a side note, Darius hating pubbies was part of what I liked about him. He was a ******, he didn't try to hide it and his members didn't cry like they do now. He was mean, he was hated, and it was funny as could be to read about what he and his goons did on forums.

[Hyacinth]

A quick googling will show he views being a "Bad guy" as a positive thing because he once viewed himself as such in Darkfall as a part of the group Evil Bastages, he recognizes Goons are the same sort of entity but that doesn't mean he likes them.

And that doesn't prove that he hates them, either. <_< I am failing to see the logic to your argument.

[Galibier]

I have to concur with Seebs regarding the clearly narcissistic traits evidenced in all of the interviews of and articles written by Mittens.

That said I think those fighting so hard to defend his actions are very illustrative of the gamer stereotype. The only way to justify the anti-social statements, regadless of whether they were planned or not, is if one sees no difference between how one conducts themselves in the real and the virtual world. Even worse is which ruleset the use. Most normal people see the real world rules as being paramount . Thus when you log out you take on the rl ruleset we need to function in reality. Here instead though people seem to be saying that simply because he was referring to an incident that came to light in the virtual world he can use that virtual world's ruleset in reality.

For people that simply can not see the problem with this (though how they miss it is beyond me) I will use an example from AoC. When I was there around launch there was a guild that speed leveled and then went out ans set up road blocks and check points in lowbie areas. The rationale behind them? Well for those that did not know AoC at launch (no clue if it still the same) had partial nudity. A female character that removed their chest piece showed bare breast. This guild would allow all male characters to pass but told all female characters that if they did not strip they would be killed. Now it distrubed me that people tried to justify even sexual assault. Using the logic in this thread though one would have to say "hey mittens is a cool guy leave him alone" if his apology was instead for engaging in a drunken sexual assault at the same event.

What he did may be acceptable in the virtual world of Eve. It is unacceptable irl. Irl it is even actionable. How any well adjusted person can fail to make the distinction between these two different rulesets and when u need to switch makes me concerned for them tbh.

[Galibier]

. This guild would allow all male characters to pass but told all female characters that if they did not strip they would be killed. Now it distrubed me that people tried to justify even VIRTUAL sexual assault.

edited to include the all caps word.

[BobFromMarketing]

lmao are you even trying? I stated in THIS THREAD that I was with EB, and not in Darkfall but in Shadowbane. FFS, at least go read the first 2 pages of the thread before you start posting lol

You and Zyzyx are amusing posters, I'll give you that. Two peas in a pod, as the expression goes. =D

On a side note, Darius hating pubbies was part of what I liked about him. He was a ******, he didn't try to hide it and his members didn't cry like they do now. He was mean, he was hated, and it was funny as could be to read about what he and his goons did on forums.

My bad going from page to page is a pain on this so I was writing from memory. Goons were plenty vocal in Darius times you may have just not been politically active enough to see it. From super cap nerfs to pos warfare to the half done sov system. They've been the way you claim only Mittani inspired since Remedial, and Sesfan. The only real difference is the visibility of said leader due to the CSM.

I'm not excusing what Mittani said I'm simply stating his mentality has been present inside the leaders of goonswarm since day one. Or does no one else remember smoske? This isn't shocking or outrageous. More of the same and worse has been said at fan fest by presenters. Like it or not it's always been part of Eve. Even at fan fest.

[the_real_seebs]

I'm not excusing what Mittani said I'm simply stating his mentality has been present inside the leaders of goonswarm since day one. Or does no one else remember smoske? This isn't shocking or outrageous. More of the same and worse has been said at fan fest by presenters. Like it or not it's always been part of Eve. Even at fan fest.

I think it's not surprising, but it is hilarious to me to watch people trying to explain that he didn't mean it literally or people are blowing it out of proportion. As to whether it's shocking, I think that's partially a question of whether you interpret that to mean surprising or merely contrary to social rules...

[Tolmos]

My bad going from page to page is a pain on this so I was writing from memory. Goons were plenty vocal in Darius times you may have just not been politically active enough to see it. From super cap nerfs to pos warfare to the half done sov system. They've been the way you claim only Mittani inspired since Remedial, and Sesfan. The only real difference is the visibility of said leader due to the CSM.

I'm not excusing what Mittani said I'm simply stating his mentality has been present inside the leaders of goonswarm since day one. Or does no one else remember smoske? This isn't shocking or outrageous. More of the same and worse has been said at fan fest by presenters. Like it or not it's always been part of Eve. Even at fan fest.

My main problem with what Mittani did was that he stepped over a line. Up until now, Goons had always been about making your in game life as miserable as possible with the end goal of maybe even making you quit the game. Yea... that bugged me a little, mainly because I love sandbox PvP games and always have a fear that EVE may one day go the way of Shadowbane because of that mentality. But, at the end of the day, it's all just part of the game. Darius' goons prolly made so many people quit it isn't funny, but I never once remember hearing about Darius get up at a fanfest and tell people to harass a man to death. And if he did, did he blame everyone but himself?

Everything Mittani has said has been sidestepping simply saying "I did wrong" without adding in 20 different excuses for WHY he did wrong (constantly mentioning alcohol, despite always saying he doesn't want to blame it. constantly blaming the media for giving him too much attention over this. constantly blaming anti-goon players. Saying it was spontaneous, when he told everyone long before the fanfest that was exactly what he intended to say). His focus has never once been on "I did wrong, of my own accord. I planned to do wrong, and just didn't think it would go over this poorly", but rather "I did wrong because of external forces but everyone is making me a victim". THAT is why everyone is making him a "victim": no one believes he's sincere in his apology. He's done everything he could to sabotage that.

tl;dr- What he did was wrong outside of the game. I don't care what he does in game to people's pixels. I kinda don't care if he makes people quit the game, though if he kills EVE I might dislike him a bit more. What I do care is that he took it way beyond what he should have, trying to affect a person's real life, and then got upset when he got attention for it and is trying to play himself off as the one being wronged. THAT is what bothers me.

Beyond that, I hope the goons burn jita to the ground (whenever they get around to that) and keep doing whatever it is goons do when they aren't making the front page of forums.

[BobFromMarketing]

So in your mind mocking a guy who died by getting hit by a bus days ago to all his internet friends isn't overstepping any boundaries? Or harassing an overweight women to thE point where she reportedly had to seek therapy or causing a guy to actually kill himself(so claimed his "wife" logging intohis account) by scamming him out of his supercap?

[Tolmos]

So in your mind mocking a guy who died by getting hit by a bus days ago to all his internet friends isn't overstepping any boundaries? Or harassing an overweight women to thE point where she reportedly had to seek therapy or causing a guy to actually kill himself(so claimed his "wife" logging intohis account) by scamming him out of his supercap?

All before my time, I'm guessing. In all the news I've heard about Darius, I never heard any of that. It's all brand new news to me.

Guess EVE goon leaders really are all ******bags >_>

The last one I'm iffy on, and here's why: A game like EVE is all about scamming people, killing their characters and taking their stuff. If someone kills themselves over the actions you take in game against their pixelated character, should you be held responsible? It's sort of akin to getting a really good job that is being offered at a company: if you take that job and someone else who needed it kills themselves, are you responsible?

Stealing is part of the game, just like killing other players. Pointedly harassing people IRL, and telling them to kill themselves or convincing others to try to get them to kill themselves, is not. But can someone be held responsible if your actions (within the ruleset of the game, and not directed personally at any IRL individual) push someone over the edge? I guess if the guy sent him a message saying "If you take my supercap I will kill myself". Then you hit that grey area, I guess. But simply playing the game normally, and having that result in a guy going over the edge... I can't blame him for that.

The first two he sucks at life for, though.

[BobFromMarketing]

Those were not all Darius. Heck that Wyvern is the one I fly. I've personally received death threats irl over it. I'm just illustrating that this sort of thing isn't new. It's just the only one to get press time. People will care about it about as long as they did Kony 2012. There have been numerous other things like this perpetrated by non goons or their allies. Even ruining a few marriages(Seleene) in the process. My point is not that what he said is ok in the real world. My point is that it's everyday and commonplace. That doesn't excuse it, it does help explain how it happened though.

I'm also illustrating that your view of Darius versus Mittani is largely due to your own lack of knowledge on the subject.


My phone made me retype lack about seven times. Kept putting in Khan.

[the_real_seebs]

I agree that this isn't particularly new -- and that's part of why I think the "apology" is laughable. There's no way this guy has been doing stuff like this all along, and hanging out with people who do stuff like this all along, and suddenly when there's a media frenzy he "realizes" that it's "wrong". Yeah, pull the other one, it's got bells on.

[BobFromMarketing]

Not just goons but large swaths of Eve are like this. As I started before I've received death threats, people have attempted to call my job, my family and more. Why get mad about one murder in a genocide instead of trying to look at and change the culture as a whole if it matters to you.

[Tolmos]

Those were not all Darius. Heck that Wyvern is the one I fly. I've personally received death threats irl over it. I'm just illustrating that this sort of thing isn't new. It's just the only one to get press time. People will care about it about as long as they did Kony 2012. There have been numerous other things like this perpetrated by non goons or their allies. Even ruining a few marriages(Seleene) in the process. My point is not that what he said is ok in the real world. My point is that it's everyday and commonplace. That doesn't excuse it, it does help explain how it happened though.

I'm also illustrating that your view of Darius versus Mittani is largely due to your own lack of knowledge on the subject.

My phone made me retype lack about seven times. Kept putting in Khan.

Fair enough. It's true that I haven't heard the majority of this stuff about Darius, but I will also point out another factor that is garnering this situation so much attention: Were any of the previous goon leaders members of the CSM?

Look at the title of this thread. It isn't "Goonswarm leader banned for *blah*". It isn't "Goonswarm leader says *blah*". It is "Mittani removed from CSM despite record 10,000+ votes!". Up until a couple days ago, I wonder how many Rift players even knew what a goon was? Would it have even made it to this forum if he wasn't a member of CSM?

You are right on one thing: this sort of deplorable act happens constantly. But in this case, it happened by a person chosen to represent CCP and it's EVE playerbase, at a convention streamed internationally, and during a presentation which was sanctioned and accepted by CCP games. Then the individual in question became offended that he garnered so much poor attention AND was removed from his place on the CSM, as opposed to simply being required to step down as chairman. And to finish it off: his supporters are making posts like the OP on this because they can't figure out why what he did was wrong enough to not be allowed to remain a representative for CCP games.

THAT is the difference between this and anything else, and without realizing it, it is his own supporters that have kept that fire alight. If not for this thread, only a handful on Rift forums would even know what had happened, and his name wouldn't have been "dragged through mud" even more.

If he wants to be in a position of respect and some small amount of authority, then he needs to accept that simply saying "Other people do it too" and "It was the alcohol, even though I don't want to blame it on the alcohol" will not do the trick.

[BobFromMarketing]

I believe three or four other goons have been on the csm. Usually two at a time. But you are likely right, this probably has a lot to do with the csm chair. I'm not trying to paint Darius as a devil because he isn't. He simply does as the Romans do if you get my meaning. Also he works for ccp now and has since he stepped down from goonswarm.

[the_real_seebs]

Not just goons but large swaths of Eve are like this. As I started before I've received death threats, people have attempted to call my job, my family and more. Why get mad about one murder in a genocide instead of trying to look at and change the culture as a whole if it matters to you.

I'm not particularly more upset about this particular instance than I am about the rest of it. I just think it's really pathetic for him to offer an obviously fake "apology" and obviously false "excuses".

If you're gonna be all hardcore and metal and do something edgy, have some guts about it. Stand up and say "yeah, I did that". Don't try to make excuses and deflect blame.

Before this pathetically failed attempt at making it look like it wasn't a big deal and anyway he was sorry, this guy was a real jerk, but at least he wasn't a total coward about it. I guess it would be too much to expect for a bully to have any kind of actual courage; they don't, pretty much by definition. But it is a sad reminder of just how empty some of these people are.

So really, you know, if he wants to go around being a jerk and trying to get people to kill themselves, I guess that's up to him; his life, he can spend it how he wants. But if he tries to get out of the consequences of those choices, he's gonna look pathetic. And if people are going to try to justify this pathos and make it look anything but pathetic, well. Then I'll argue the fact claim.

See, that's the thing. I am okay with the fact that people do crappy things to each other. That's part of life. I just object when people try to lie about how things are. Reality deserves at least the basic respect of being acknowledged.

I suppose one could in theory try to change the whole system, but honestly, I don't think you could have something recognizeably like EVE in which stuff like this didn't happen. CCP would cease to exist if they tried to prevent people from making things real and personal. That's their selling point!