Eve Online: The mittani removed from CSM despite record 10,000+ votes!

[BobTheGoblin]

Going to have to ask for clarification on the point where you stated Mittani lied about being intoxicated then, at your link the only thing i saw was him saying "I was really drunk"

Ah, you are absolutely correct. On top of that, I only gave you half of the "proof" in that line. I apologize for that and shall elaborate.

There's no excuse for what I did - while some might try to use my inebriation as a mitigating factor, I put myself in that compromised mental state, and the guilt of that is entirely mine.

While the first paragraph focuses on his drunkeness, as opposed to what he said, it is in this line he states what he is at fault for, primarily. The main source of his guilt- being drunk enough to say that. And yet... long before he was drunk, long before the drinking even began, in the video made prior to the fanfest he said the exact same thing. And, in fact, went on to say that it was the basis of his entire talk.

However, I am remiss from having expected you gather it entirely from that, as I only gave you half of the story there. I SHOULD have included in that line as well a link I included for a different reason later on, which more specifically covered the point. It is here: http://pastebin.com/B7HCtBUE

my presentation was boring, I was hideously drunk, and I said something entirely regrettable. My apology upon my return was not a troll (though our in-game enemies are trying to imply it is just a calculated move); as a maniacal control freak, me getting that drunk leaves me with a foul opinion of myself and I wish I hadn't done as I had.

...

There is no question that I went too far and drank too much, and ignored advice that I shouldn't use that specific slide at all.

Every time he brings up the slide, or mentioning of it, alcohol is the primary focus of the discussion.

To further this a little, I am not the only person who took his statements as meaning the only reason he said it was because he was drunk. Let's quote a link that Zyzyx posted earlier in the thread:

Sorry, but the offending comment did not come at the end of a "dramatic" reading. It came near the end of the question and answer session as The Mittani tried to be cool in the way drunks will; with too much volume and thinking himself funny "ha-ha" instead of funny "let's lock him in the basement and not let him in public again." In other words, the remark was a spur of the moment brain-fart, not a planned part of the presentation.

Except, again, the slide was pre-made and in the youtube video I posted in my "fact check" post he specifically stated that he would say exactly what he did.

Anyhow, now that you brought it up my post was painfully barren of much of the information it required, at least for that particular part. I apologize for that.

[Galibier]

I think others have summed it up differently but here it is. I and many others are on the outside looking in. All we see is an in individual did something that apparently in every context, but that placed on it by fans of his in Eve, would be seen as cruel, arguably immoral, and potentially actionable in a civil court proceeding. However people who like the guy and are part of the VIRTUAL politics of a VIRTUAL world, think these rules should somehow not apply.

The problem is this. Once you step out of the virtual world you need to watch your butt and what you say. Just because you think you are surrounded by like minded people does not give you an excuse to come off sounding like an anti-social bully. You never know who is going to see or hear what was said. Look around you at all of the case law. Employees get fired all the time for posting things on their facebook page that is disparaging, actionable or embarassing to their employers. This is really no different. He did something that was all of the above irl and it went viral via social media.

This is It is how the real world works and it really seems to me that some people need to get out more and interact with this real world because if they don't while their virtual corporation in Eve may be success they will fail at the game we call life and then will be raging at the injustice of it all when the injustice actually lay with them.

[the_real_seebs]

Soooo....

If it was spontaneous, how exactly did the slide come into existence, such that people could have advised him not to use it?

[BobFromMarketing]

Ah, you are absolutely correct. On top of that, I only gave you half of the "proof" in that line. I apologize for that and shall elaborate.

There's no excuse for what I did - while some might try to use my inebriation as a mitigating factor, I put myself in that compromised mental state, and the guilt of that is entirely mine.

While the first paragraph focuses on his drunkeness, as opposed to what he said, it is in this line he states what he is at fault for, primarily. The main source of his guilt- being drunk enough to say that. And yet... long before he was drunk, long before the drinking even began, in the video made prior to the fanfest he said the exact same thing. And, in fact, went on to say that it was the basis of his entire talk.

However, I am remiss from having expected you gather it entirely from that, as I only gave you half of the story there. I SHOULD have included in that line as well a link I included for a different reason later on, which more specifically covered the point. It is here: http://pastebin.com/B7HCtBUE

my presentation was boring, I was hideously drunk, and I said something entirely regrettable. My apology upon my return was not a troll (though our in-game enemies are trying to imply it is just a calculated move); as a maniacal control freak, me getting that drunk leaves me with a foul opinion of myself and I wish I hadn't done as I had.

...

There is no question that I went too far and drank too much, and ignored advice that I shouldn't use that specific slide at all.

Every time he brings up the slide, or mentioning of it, alcohol is the primary focus of the discussion.

To further this a little, I am not the only person who took his statements as meaning the only reason he said it was because he was drunk. Let's quote a link that Zyzyx posted earlier in the thread:

Sorry, but the offending comment did not come at the end of a "dramatic" reading. It came near the end of the question and answer session as The Mittani tried to be cool in the way drunks will; with too much volume and thinking himself funny "ha-ha" instead of funny "let's lock him in the basement and not let him in public again." In other words, the remark was a spur of the moment brain-fart, not a planned part of the presentation.

Except, again, the slide was pre-made and in the youtube video I posted in my "fact check" post he specifically stated that he would say exactly what he did.

Anyhow, now that you brought it up my post was painfully barren of much of the information it required, at least for that particular part. I apologize for that.

I didn't see any slides explicitly asking a player to kill themselves, just telling a story about an event that involved griefing. You have to keep in mind Eve the devs fully encourage griefing, it's one of their selling points in Eve to be quite honest. CCP also had seen every slide he presented before the fact, just as they had seen every other panel members slides beforehand. They didn't have a problem with the slides, only in what was said during the Q&A

[Tolmos]

I didn't see any slides explicitly asking a player to kill themselves, just telling a story about an event that involved griefing. You have to keep in mind Eve the devs fully encourage griefing, it's one of their selling points in Eve to be quite honest. CCP also had seen every slide he presented before the fact, just as they had seen every other panel members slides beforehand. They didn't have a problem with the slides, only in what was said during the Q&A

I'm guessing your computer doesn't have sound, since the youtube video was listed there saying this, so I'll type out what was said with the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...0a0ovTA#t=422s

"The theme of this year's Goonswarm Alliance Presentation is going to be "Goonswarm Hates you". And basically just talk about...uh... each different little aspect, demographic of EVE. Of how much we hate and want people to die and kill themselves. Like, highsec miners: We want them to kill themselves. People who roleplay? We want them to kill themselves. People with Titans? We want them to kill themselves." - Alexander Gianturco BEFORE the Fanfest. That guy talking in the video is Mittani.

[BobFromMarketing]

I think that while that's a really cruddy choice of words it's not meant literally. Just like when players tell others such hate epitaphs as diaf and other popular catch phrases. It's also worth pointing out that in Eve telling another player to, kill himself in character is not against the rules. I think his choice of words is really poor in this interview however considering what's, happened.

[Tolmos]

I think that while that's a really cruddy choice of words it's not meant literally. Just like when players tell others such hate epitaphs as diaf and other popular catch phrases. It's also worth pointing out that in Eve telling another player to, kill himself in character is not against the rules. I think his choice of words is really poor in this interview however considering what's, happened.

His choice of words is spot on. He said what he intended to do, and then went to the fanfest and did it. He said he wanted people to kill themselves, and then went to the convention, stood up in front of a group of people, read out a mail sent to him by someone claiming to be suicidal in a very cruel way and then said "if you want to make this guy kill himself, his name is..."

So no, his choice of wording was perfect for his intentions, which are impossible to construe as anything other than what they were. I mean, it really doesn't even require interpretation considering he was up front and told us beforehand exactly what was about to happen. Gotta give him that- he didn't hide his plans beforehand. Only after he realized it was crossing the line bigtime and wasn't exactly sane.

[Zyzyx]

Soooo....

If it was spontaneous, how exactly did the slide come into existence, such that people could have advised him not to use it?

The slide was not a problem. It was pre-approved and put up on a power-point presentation by CCP(the game company). What was spontaneous was his answer to the Q&A session(which is what crossed the line).

[Tolmos]

The slide was not a problem. It was pre-approved and put up on a power-point presentation by CCP(the game company). What was spontaneous was his answer to the Q&A session(which is what crossed the line).

Since he stated exactly what he would say before the fanfest, it wasn't spontaneous. Thought you did hit a good point: CCP Soundwave, who knew exactly what he was going to say and exactly what his slide said beforehand, is on the verge of being in deep doodoo over this...

[the_real_seebs]

I think that while that's a really cruddy choice of words it's not meant literally.

What is your basis for this interpretation? How exactly could you interpret it non-literally? "Hey, BobFromMarketing is suicidal, everyone go harass him and maybe he'll kill himself" ... does that even admit a non-literal interpretation? "kill urself" in-game might be non-literal; "this player is suicidal but hasn't killed himself yet, if a bunch of people harass him maybe he will" really doesn't allow a non-literal interpretation.

[the_real_seebs]

I didn't see any slides explicitly asking a player to kill themselves, just telling a story about an event that involved griefing. You have to keep in mind Eve the devs fully encourage griefing, it's one of their selling points in Eve to be quite honest. CCP also had seen every slide he presented before the fact, just as they had seen every other panel members slides beforehand. They didn't have a problem with the slides, only in what was said during the Q&A

The point of the slides is that they establish premeditation; this was not some random thing, but rather, something fully consistent with CCP's view of the game they want to create.

That they didn't have a problem with the slides doesn't mean the slides were okay by everyone else's standards; it means that CCP is cool with the idea that some of their players are trying to induce other players to literally suicide. Because that is the attraction of EVE -- that you can permanently lose months or years of work, which is a thing that could easily knock a suicidal person over the edge. And that's part of the reason it attracts griefers; because CCP's consistently sent them a "that is so metal! you rock!" vibe.

That CCP has suddenly realized that the rest of humanity disagrees with them does not change what was said, or make it unplanned or a result of alcohol. That was a person saying exactly what he really thinks, then offering a completely fake "apology" because he thinks the news sites are idiots who will believe anything you tell them.

[Zyzyx]

What is your basis for this interpretation? How exactly could you interpret it non-literally? "Hey, BobFromMarketing is suicidal, everyone go harass him and maybe he'll kill himself" ... does that even admit a non-literal interpretation? "kill urself" in-game might be non-literal; "this player is suicidal but hasn't killed himself yet, if a bunch of people harass him maybe he will" really doesn't allow a non-literal interpretation.

Seebs none of the people involved in this situation have claimed to be "suicidal" or have presented any medical records/police reports hinting that they are.

The quote you are misrepresenting was along the lines of, "if you want to make this person kill himself go ahead".

it means that CCP is cool with the idea that some of their players are trying to induce other players to literally suicide.

No, no it doesn't. What would make you think that? The slide had nothing to do with targeting players. Did you even read / listen to the slide?

That was a person saying exactly what he really thinks, then offering a completely fake "apology" because he thinks the news sites are idiots who will believe anything you tell them.

What makes you think his apology was fake?

The news sites do seem to be at the very least less than competent because they've gotten so much wrong on this topic.

[Tolmos]

Seebs none of the people involved in this situation have claimed to be "suicidal"

"Since my divorce, all I want to do is die..." - The Wis's letter to Mittani, as read by Alexander Gianturco

The quote you are misrepresenting was along the lines of, "if you want to make this person kill himself go ahead".

"Incidentally, if you wanna make the guy kill himself, his name is 'The Wis'" - Alexander Gianturco after publicly humiliating and singling out the guy.

No, no it doesn't. What would make you think that? The slide had nothing to do with targeting players. Did you even read / listen to the slide?

Yes. It was a mail from a specific person, who he named off and even took the time to spell out for everyone, which he used to publicly humiliate the guy. So yes, we read the slide. EVERYONE, at this point, has read the slide. He knew what he was going to say before he got up there- that is no longer the question.

What makes you think his apology was fake?

Ooo, this is an easy one! This.

The news sites do seem to be at the very least less than competent because they've gotten so much wrong on this topic.

Who cares what the news sites say? We have the video of Alexander before the panel saying he he intended to do it, during the panel doing it, and posts after the fact saying he never intended to do it. And then basically mocking the apology/stepping down as something that he did just for the good of the Goons

[the_real_seebs]

As to the "misreading" thing...

This guy is, as I understand it, pretty well-respected among the goons. Now, you may like or dislike the goons, but I have never seen Something Awful posters known for their extreme tolerance of incompetence or stupidity.

I have, however, seen them pretty tolerant of people being jerks.

So let's consider the possibilities:
1. The goons regard an inept writer and communicator as a highly influential leader.
2. The goons regard a guy who is sort of a jerk as a highly influential leader.

My money's on #2, really.

And yes, I consider the apology fake because of his long analysis of how it's a media feeding frenzy and it's all vendettas and grudges, oh, and also because he blamed it on booze when it clearly wasn't a new thing with the booze. This was not some random stranger; this was the culmination of a long-term harassment project.

Seriously, look at who the guy is, look at what he's done in the past. Now tell me with a straight face he wouldn't offer an insincere apology if he thought it would benefit him. Can't do it, can you?

So the question is, do we have reason to believe the apology? Well, his later comments about how horrible the social media sites and their bias and vendetta against him sure don't make it sound like he thinks he actually did something wrong. He doesn't regret trying to make someone commit suicide; he regrets doing it in a forum where people who would object to it would make a big deal of it.

Attempts to make this look like he's some tragic misunderstood hero are just emphasizing his essential point, which is that people will believe obviously false claims if it makes them feel better.

[Zyzyx]

You prove my first two points for me. Thanks.

Third, are you insinuating that mittani is somehow psychic and prophesied the Q&A and planned his answer to the question from the future?

Next, nothing here makes me think the apology was disingenuous. His actions since fan fest only seem to prove his sincerity

I'd say alot of people care what news sites say. Many people (like seebs) are obviously getting their information from such news sites. If these news sites have bad and or false information, the people who get their information from these news sites who fail to do any due diligence propagate that misinformation and all we get is more people who don't know the truth about what has happened.