Trion killed Rift.

[the_real_seebs]

I've proven my point with factual data

No, you haven't. You've offered claims, many unverified, which make you feel good about your claims -- but you've omitted key facts that would be necessary to make your point.

You are not actually making rational arguments; you're stating things that feel connected to the issue for you. Try taking one of your oh-so-persuasive posts and reformulating it as pure syllogisms with abstract terms, and you'll find that it's not as persuasive as you think.

Then when you've done that, post an outraged thing about how people who are naturally wired to think logically have it too easy.

[Laeris]

I've proven my point with factual data that anyone can read if they take the time... I've spent a massive amount of time on these threads over the last few days. I will trust in people's ability to read and come to an intelligent conclusion, or Rift can fail like WoW has, unfortunately.

The information and facts are there if you want to read my post and research for yourself... I can't go on repeating the same things for days on end, it's exhausting really... gl.

I think if you think WoW failed, then Trion would -love- to fail some more.

[the_real_seebs]

Even if we stipulate for the sake of argument that WoW failed, there's no proof of causality here, nor even good evidence for it. Too many confounding factors.

It's like the thing where newspapers will say something made stocks go up, and then later the same day change the headlines to say the same thing made stocks go down. Really, they have no idea whether there was a connection, people just like to imagine connections.

[bluedot]

I've proven my point with factual data that anyone can read if they take the time... I've spent a massive amount of time on these threads over the last few days. I will trust in people's ability to read and come to an intelligent conclusion, or Rift can fail like WoW has, unfortunately.

The information and facts are there if you want to read my post and research for yourself... I can't go on repeating the same things for days on end, it's exhausting really... gl.

The main theme of your argument is that all players should have to put forth roughly the same amount of effort to participate in all the available content. I don't blame you for holding to this viewpoint as it is a primary theme in real life, and it works very well in real life.

What I you are missing, however, is that this system does not work in a virtual world as illustrated by every single MMO (Of this style) before WoW. WoW was the first MMO to start using this system, and as a result they were the first to maintain a steady stream of new players throughout its continuing life.
You need to look past a 3 to 5 month time frame and think more in terms of years, and over the entire life of the game. Using the system you proposed would mean the hypothetical guild you created would gradually fall further and further behind to the point that a new content patch was completely mealiness because they would still be 6 months behind it.
Furthermore, there is no discernible benefit to your system. You are arguing for it solely on the basis that it is some how important that everyone experience the content exactly how you did, regardless of when they experience it. But, it is not important, it in no way diminishes the accomplishments of those who defeated the content before the changes. In no way does it lessen the value of those accomplishments, because anyone who cares about your accomplishments (which is a number somewhere between few and none) knows the difference between pre and post nerf.

As side notes, and as many people have already pointed out:
The recent patches in WoW are not similar or related to what Trion is doing. There are very distinct differences.
It is financially irresponsible to develop content that only 2% of your customers will see.

[Spezial]

Exactly. Trion is making raiding in HK more accessable (not easier per se, you still have to be good to do it) becaause all the top guilds already have Hammerknell. on farm. Infernal Dawn is being tested in the private invite Test Shards now.

It's counter productive to make a game with the emphasis on 'massively multiplayer' and then lovingly create awesome challenging content, which only (stat pulled out of my hat) 2% of the population will ever see.

That's where you're wrong. It's exactly what makes a mmo-game popular when it's a mirror of society That only 1% gets to see 'the finals' and the 99% wants to be as good/lucky/rich/connected like them. It's counter-productive to create content that requires no effort, time or difficulty which will only leave the masses with the feeling of 'whatever' as they stomp over it, quickly followed by 'logout' and later on 'unsub'. Look at it like a Ferrari. It's the pricetag you're paying for so everybody will envy you, that you could afford it eventhough it's basically just another car. That's what a 'brand' is all about.

With that said, 1.7 was one hell of a nice job on PvP. The (few) games i've played have been very balanced in terms of survivability vs killability. Not getting two shot, but can die. Same goes for the other team. So +1, that just got more skillbased than rnglolcritsover9000.

[bluedot]

That's where you're wrong. It's exactly what makes a mmo-game popular when it's a mirror of society That only 1% gets to see 'the finals' and the 99% wants to be as good/lucky/rich/connected like them. It's counter-productive to create content that requires no effort, time or difficulty which will only leave the masses with the feeling of 'whatever' as they stomp over it, quickly followed by 'logout' and later on 'unsub'. Look at it like a Ferrari. It's the pricetag you're paying for so everybody will envy you, that you could afford it eventhough it's basically just another car. That's what a 'brand' is all about.

I don't disagree with you, I love the idea of having "Elite" fights that very very few people get to experience. This has worked well in many dungeons such as one of my personal favorites, Ulduar (Algalon).

But when I went back and did Algalon after Icecrown it was still somewhat hard, even though we downed him after a few tries I was still in awe that people were able to kill him when he was relevant.
That will be the case here. Yes, when we all have tier 27 gear Akylios will be relatively easy, but it will not diminish the accomplishments of those who killed him when he was progression. In fact it will probably make them more legendary.

[Laeris]

That's where you're wrong. It's exactly what makes a mmo-game popular when it's a mirror of society That only 1% gets to see 'the finals' and the 99% wants to be as good/lucky/rich/connected like them.

I have to disagree with the selected quote there. I don't think 99 or 98% of people are envious of raid guilds. I think most people who don't raid just don't care to . If you just look at the MMO landscape, the new MMOs in production don't even have 10 man raids being developed. It is a dead-end gameplay preference and has been on the decline for years now.

In EQ, raids involved hundreds of people in plane raids. In WoW, that was condensed to 40. In Rift, we're at 20. In SWTOR, 8.

Raiding is and always will be a far removed fringe activity in any MMO. Even Blizzard stated that throughout the entire history of WoW, less than 30% of its players had ever set foot inside a raid instance. It's good to have some content for people to challenge themselves on... but I think most people who don't raid don't look at hardcore raid guilds with any sort of envy.

It's usually the exact opposite because they tend to come off as holier than thou types who thinks that 99% of people want to be like them... when in reality, people who don't raid probably don't even know they exist.

[bluedot]

It's usually the exact opposite because they tend to come off as holier than thou types who thinks that 99% of people want to be like them... when in reality, people who don't raid probably don't even know they exist.

If you apologize I'll let you look at my HK achievements.

[Raen]

It is financially irresponsible to develop content that only 2% of your customers will see.

^


Interestingly enough, there are more people who are casual gamers than there are serious gamers. Of course Trion's going to do a bit more to keep them busy and satisfied, and the eventual "nerfing" of content helps expand the amount of content those casual gamers can do without adding more content. Those who have done the content take pride in doing it when it was harder. Those who want a challenge do crazy stuff, like "killing no adds," or "less healers." There are ways to make engagements more difficult for the seasoned gamer, it just takes more motivation from the gamers' side.

Also, in regards to challenging content, it should not be mainstream. Somewhat like how the MM dungeons are set up as, "hardmode" content should be EXTRA. Optional. A nice perk. It should not be part of the gearing up process (aside from trivial upgrades). The experience is reward enough. The upgrade that not many others have is a perk.

Being offended that one person has it easier is also a way of saying you easily become envious. Why should you care? It's not hurting you. For the people who are now just doing the "nerfed' content, they're still working for it. It might still be challenging to them. You should worry about you and your happiness before you think you have the right to decide what you think others should experience.

I like challenging content. I really do. But when I truly want to be challenged by something that others (and myself) do easily, I try different ways of doing it. This game is not on rails for a reason. Do something other than complain on the forums, because I guarantee that it's probably a lot more fun than this.

[Laeris]

If you apologize I'll let you look at my HK achievements.

Apologize for what exactly? And I have plenty of those myself.

[bluedot]

Apologize for what exactly? And I have plenty of those myself.

It was just my poor attempt at humor, don't worry about it.

[Forbin]

In EQ, raids involved hundreds of people in plane raids. In WoW, that was condensed to 40. In Rift, we're at 20. In SWTOR, 8.

.

Its either Rift 20, SWTOR 16 or Rift 10, SWTOR 8. Be honest with your numbers at least.

[Chumly]

I've proven my point with factual data that anyone can read if they take the time... I've spent a massive amount of time on these threads over the last few days. I will trust in people's ability to read and come to an intelligent conclusion, or Rift can fail like WoW has, unfortunately.

The information and facts are there if you want to read my post and research for yourself... I can't go on repeating the same things for days on end, it's exhausting really... gl.

The fact is that you have little to no support around here. I'm pretty sure everyone read your post. The fact remains that you just keep saying the same thing and are proven wrong over and over. You think if you were right more people would agree with you but that's just not what’s happening.

I guess that almost everyone on these forums is intelligent then. Damn man you’re just way too smart for the rest of us.

P.S. Wow still has almost more subs in NA alone then all other NA MMOs combined. Sounds like a huge failure to me.

[Chumly]

Its either Rift 20, SWTOR 16 or Rift 10, SWTOR 8. Be honest with your numbers at least.

It was just showing that the numbers are going down. Thanks for helping prove the point though.

[Thorazine]

Love 1.7, love the new pvp, love everything about the game and having a blast. R38, doing some raids, some crafting. IA's, adventures, chronicles, PA. Doing mm's, getting married to a dude, wearing costumes.

I'm in month 10 and this is the most fun I've had in a mmorpg. Thanks Rift team!