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Thread: Rift vs ToR: An MMO Veteran's Analysis After a Month

  1. #1
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    Default Rift vs ToR: An MMO Veteran's Analysis After a Month

    Hello!

    Before I begin, I'd like to provide a bit of background on myself as it pertains to MMOs. As I'm 29 years of age I've had my fair share of time devoted to MMO gaming and my experience spans over a decade. It began with Ragnarok Online and continues to this day with Rift and Star Wars: The Old Republic while also playing World of Warcraft, Warhammer Online, Final Fantasy XI, Everquest II and Aion in between. Each game I've mentioned, with the lone exception of Star Wars: The Old Republic, obviously, has been played for a minimum of three months while most have been played for quite a bit longer than that. I provide this information only to qualify myself as someone with extensive MMO experience.

    With Star Wars: The Old Republic rapidly approaching the one-month mark for those such as myself that were part of early access, I felt the community might enjoy reading one man's perspective regarding my experiences therein as compared against Rift. To be clear, I play both Rift and ToR at present and have no intention of leaving either any time in the near future as both games do certain things very well - well enough that I find each to be very enjoyable. It's my sincere hope that this post sheds some light on this so-called "battle" between these two games (a battle that shouldn't be called as such and needn't exist in the first place mind you).

    The format for this post will be as follows:
    • I will first provide a category (such as "Dungeons and Raids")
    • I will then offer a comparative expression such as "Rift > ToR", "ToR > Rift" or Rift == "ToR". For areas where I feel a difference between the two games is substantial, I'll use an expression such as "Rift >> ToR" or "ToR >> Rift".

    Lastly, I present these categories in no particular order. I am typing them as they come to mind and therefore there is no need to read into the order in which they've been offered as it means nothing.

    Story and Lore
    ToR >> Rift

    Even before ToR was released, story was a major concern of mine in Rift. While there is certainly plenty of lore available and lots of content that is loosely based around story, the means of experience such stories are limited and that which does exist doesn't do the stories behind Rift any service. As a lone example, I consistently find myself thinking that the distinctions behind the races of Telara are minimal and that there should be considerably more effort put towards developing this aspect of the game. Who are the Kelari? Where do they come from? Aside from some trivial racial bonuses (that are reused across races), why should I adventure as a Kelari as opposed to a Mathosian or a Bahmi? Where Rift fails in this regard, ToR excels. Indeed it may be the highest point in favor of ToR in that every class, every race, every planet, every quest, every dungeon, heck, even every crafting effort is a well-written story that, if you should allow it to do so, will draw you in and improve your gaming experience.

    Dungeons and Raids
    Rift > ToR

    I refer to this category as such, instead of ambiguously referring to it as "PvE" because PvE itself takes many different forms and I wanted to be more specific. While ToR definitely offers the player plenty of PvE experiences in terms of dungeons and raids, Rift does this aspect of an MMO significantly better. The dungeons and raids within ToR are trivial and even clunky at times. The encounters are straightforward and nothing exciting while Rift's dungeons and raids (particularly the raids) are among the most well done I've experience in any MMO.


    Combat
    Rift = ToR

    To their detriment, both Rift and ToR feature an inherent latency when in combat that is most noticeable during PvP while games such as World of Warcraft set the benchmark in this area. In saying this, please note that I am not speaking to class balance or how enjoyable combat is but rather am speaking directly to the "responsiveness", "synchronization" and "fluidity" of combat whether in PvE or PvP. Further note that Rift is "slightly" better in this regard than ToR but both suffer. To date, no MMO has been able to match the responsiveness of WoW's engine but, with that aside, the combat in both Rift and ToR is enjoyable. I spend many a night grinding out Pyraki on Ember Isle towards some achievements or participating in world events for Inscribed Sourcestone - slicing through my enemies with the gutteral sound effects of a Rift Assassin. Likewise, I spend many a night leaping through the air at my enemies with dual lightsabers to collect credits or improve my Bioanalysis crew skill.


    PvP
    ToR > Rift

    The PvP in Rift is decent, but that is as far as I can go in its favor. With the aforementioned inherent latency in the game, partnered with 8 souls per class to choose from and thus countless specs to deal with, PvP in Rift at times seems very, very random and skilless. This is not to say that there can't be skillful PvP play in Rift but rather that situations where skill determines the outcome of combat are few and far between given the very nature of the game's PvP. What's more is that the Warfronts are simple mechanics layered overtop of team deathmatch. In one case you have capture the flag. In another you have a fight over a single relic or collection of relics where points are accumulated the longer you hold them. Still in another case you have node control. Only in Port Scion or the new weekend version of Black Garden do we see anything inventive in terms of organized PvP. By contrast, ToR has launched with three "Warzones" that each are among the most fun I've had in group PvP in all my MMO experience. The first is Huttball where there is a ball at center court that two teams fight to control. The objective is simple: get the ball over your opponent's goal line. The implementation, however, is beautiful. You can pass the Huttball up to 30 meters away. Further, there are environmental hazards that can be used to your advantage. Personally, I like to time my Force Leap (which stuns the target for 2 seconds upon impact) for when the ball carrier is attempting to cross over a fire hazard that has temporarily turned off. I then promptly step away and watch then burn to death in front of me. Further, the Huttball arena is not a flat zone but rather has rafters and platforms one can use to your advantage - whether that means raining down ranged destruction on your enemies or passing the ball up to a comrade to get ahead. This is merely one example but I don't wish to belabor it further. I'll simply note that the other two Warzones are a more inventive version of node control and an "Assault" contest (think "Assault" game mode from the Unreal Tournament series where you either defend or attack objectives).


    Graphics and Sound Effects
    Rift > ToR

    To date, Rift's graphics are among the most beautiful of any MMO I've played. This is especially the case in Ember Isle where it is clear that Trion paid extra attention to detail. The water near Ember Watch is amazingly done. The sound it makes as it glides over the cliff nearby is entrancing and the ambient sounds to be found through the game are extremely well done. Whether it's the rains of Stonefield or the sandstorms of Droughtlands, Rift excels in terms of both graphical presentation and sounds. This is all not to say, however, that ToR is a slouch in this department - just that Rift does things a bit better. The graphics in ToR are sorely underrated. Prior to ever playing the game I was fed horror stories from beta testers stating that the graphics in ToR were a step backwards from WoW only to find, once logging into the game myself, that nothing could be farther from the truth. At maximum settings (I play both Rift and ToR maxed), the game is very beautiful but in a different way. The models are mildly cartoonish yet they have a hint of realism and that I find enjoyable. The zones are vast and highly-detailed. As far as the sound effects are concerned, however, Rift has a definite edge over ToR. While some effects are done well, such as the sound of lightsabers or the sound of boots upon metal surfaces, others leave you wondering if a bug has gone overlooked such as running over puddles in Dromand Kaas only to hear nothing in the form of a splash.


    Music
    ToR > Rift

    Rift's music is very good - when you get to actually hear it. Rift suffers from a musical fragmentation that regularly has be scratching my head regardless of what zone I'm in. I remember when I first arrived on Ember Isle, I heard the entrance theme to the zone and immediately felt immersed in the environment - only to have the track "complete" after about 15 seconds leaving me with nothing. This is par for the proverbial course in Rift and, quite honestly, is a point of frustration for me. While ToR does obviously benefit from much of a musical score having already existed prior to the game ever was conceived, the implementation was well done. The music is engaging and definitely places you in a Star Wars universe. For more information around what I mean when I refer to Rift's music, please see my thread at the following location: http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...back-long.html


    Stability
    Rift == ToR

    There's not much to say here other than pointing out that Rift and ToR have been two of the most seamless and successful MMO launches I've ever been a part of. Both games launched without much of a hiccup and both maintain quality servers to this very day (obviously ToR is much younger).


    Professions/Crafting
    ToR >> Rift

    I have two level 50 characters in Rift - a Rogue and a Mage. On my Rogue, I chose to go with three gathering professions as, at the time, I felt it would be highly lucrative. Even with gathering professions, however, there comes some crafting of sorts and, after experience what little crafting there is having Butchering, Foraging and Mining as professions, I opted to not level professions at all on my Mage as I the system was bland, uninviting and, to me, ultimately pointless. Rift's professions are standard MMO fare and little more. Here's a list of ingredients - have them in your inventory and click to craft it. By contrast, the crafting in ToR is substantially different and MUCH more enjoyable. In ToR, you send your companions to level your professions for you. Each gathering profession is broken down into missions that you can send a companion on for you - upon the conclusion of which they will announce their return and the spoils of their mission are immediately present in your inventory. For actual crafting, your companions can take care of this to. What's more is that you can queue up jobs. For example, I can queue up one of my companions to complete five Bioanalysis missions to replenish my stock of compounds, samples and medical supplies while I queue up another companion to craft five different stims. The companions can work off of any materials in your personal inventory as well as any materials stored in your ship's storage. Additionally, there are substantially more professions in ToR and each provides unique benefits. Just to name a few (although there are many more than this), you have Underworld Trading, Slicing, Bioanalysis, Cybertech, Armstech, Diplomacy, Treasure Hunting and Synthweaving. Now if only ToR would follow Rift's example in creating a mobile, but have that mobile app allow deployment of your companions on missions!


    Fluff
    Rift > ToR

    Fluff is everything from giant candy canes, to costumes, to different types of mounts and much more. ToR is still quite young so this aspect of the game may yet come around but, for now, Rift has a substantial advantage in this regard. Of note in ToR are the many different speeders (mounts) that are already available. Further, once you receive your own personal starship, there are quite a few customizations that can be made to it. Even still, Rift is much further along in this regard and should stay as such for quite some time unless Bioware decides to dedicate considerable resources to this cause - which I doubt will happen any time soon.


    Replayability
    Rift > ToR

    Given the sheer amount of dynamic content in Rift, it's hard to knock it in terms of replayability. Now I understand that, with the holidays and the release of ToR, Rift seems a bit stagnant at the moment but this can't possibly belittle the immense amount of content Trion pushed into its game in such a short amount of time. Ultimately what has me playing ToR at the moment is that it is a high quality game that is new and thus fresh and "shiny". To keep my attention for the long run, it will obviously need quality updates just as any MMO does. While I've the utmost confidence in Bioware's ability to deliver on this, at this time, I have to give the nod for this category to Rift by technicality.
    Last edited by Synovia; 01-04-2012 at 02:56 PM.

  2. #2
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    What... ToR pvp >> Rift PvP? What have you been smoking? Maybe its just me but ToR has a lot less pvp, and the wf itself are so uninspired that I can't find fun in doing any of them. The 'pvp planet' is basically a carebear world were one side ignores the other most the time. Dunno, my two cents at the area I found rather off. Could go on about crafting, but I guess it is at least different in tor, even if I think its the worst crafting system I've ever seen.

    Oh and just an FYI, its been out less then a month, even including the 'early access' or whatever.
    Last edited by Purutzil; 01-04-2012 at 03:25 PM.

  3. #3
    RIFT Community Ambassador the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    My best guess as to the seamlessness:

    In WoW, events get "backdated" to when the player activated them. If any player involved has significant lag, this can result in the engine retroactively changing what happened. So say I have a pretty high ping time, and I use an ability like a charge that includes a stun effect. I push my button, and a fraction of a second later you use a power. Your power appears to take effect right away, but when my power gets in, the engine realizes that actually that couldn't have happened in that order and changes what happened. (This was especially noticeable when jousting in the tourney with high ping times.)

    In Rift, there's much, much, less of that. Powers might take effect, but they'll take effect roughly in order. The game feels more "laggy", but I've never had the game suddenly teleport me to where it now realizes I should have been. Overall, I like this choice better; the information presented to me is more accurate, and there's less chance that I'll be penalized because something I did got retroactively cancelled due to ping time.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Got ideas for improving the RIFT community? Feel free to PM me. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (NOTE NEW URL)

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    Can't argue with most of your comments with the exception of replay. Can't agree with Rift having a better replay than TOR. I find that once I've done something in Rift there isn't much draw to do it again on another character.

    One other category for those of us sick of the WoW game play experience.

    WoW Clone Level
    On this one TOR beats the hell out of Rift as TOR isn't WoW in Space. I find Rift just a rehash of WoW but TOR is a very different game experience.

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara Sargonnas_KoA's Avatar
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    Story and Lore
    ToR >> Rift

    I would agree with this one and its been a on and off complaint since Rift came out. They need to put more detail into the story to keep new content in the game from being too bland. When you play you just have no real feeling towards any race, faction, or just about anything because much of the story is very basic and not presented in a way that gets players interest. Guardians and Defiants are at war, but at this point who really cares? There is nothing making this feel important. On the flipside games like WoW and Star Wars have years of lore already there before the game is released which is a huge advantage for them versus Rift where the lore began as the game was being created.

    Dungeons and Raids
    Rift > ToR

    I agree with this too. They have done a great job with dungeons and raids and the pace of new content in this game has set the standard for what players are going to expect in other MMO's. TOR's potential long term success depends on retaining subscribers, fixing bugs, and getting new content out fairly rapidly. I don't think Bioware thought much about pace of new content till recently, but players have and they will go somewhere else if they don't have fast and furious updates. As for Rift they have also dug themselves a bit of a hole by putting out content so fast that people expect it to stay that way and stop playing when it doesn't. Its comparable to a restaurant putting out coupons to get more business, but putting out so many that the people stop coming when the coupons stop going out.

    Combat
    Rift > ToR

    I'm not sure how I feel about this one. Rift, WoW, and TOR all use the same basic model for combat, but I would give Rift the edge due to the soul system. I don't agree with the latency issues. I really have barely ever had any issues like what you described.

    PvP
    Rift > ToR

    I was surprised with your view on PvP. While Rift pvp isn't perfect either, TOR pvp does feel like a broken mess and Bioware will not retain their pvp playerbase at all without some serious work. Huttball is a pretty good idea, but there are just too many problems for pvp to be better than Rift right now. TOR has an entire pvp zone that is kind of useless right now and pvp servers that dont even really have open world pvp so their system cant be that great.

    Graphics and Sound Effects
    Rift > ToR

    Rift definitely wins this one. I'm not a fan of cartoony graphics after playing WoW for years, but TOR also partially plays and looks like what it is, which is MMO that was started 6 years ago so its a little behind the times. Its environmental effects usually look pretty good, but the character models are not something I like.

    Music
    ToR > Rift

    This one is similar to Story for Rift. Its an area they are way behind on and they need an upgrade. Obviously comparing it directly to TOR is kind of unfair with TOR having 35 years of award winning Star Wars music to fall back on, but Rift needs more better quality music.

    Stability
    Rift == ToR

    I agree.

    Professions/Crafting
    ToR >> Rift

    This is one of those areas where Trion needs to look very closely, take the good parts, and put it directly into Rift. TOR has done something different with crafting which is why people find it enjoyable versus the same crap, different game from most of the other MMO's out there.

    Fluff
    Rift > ToR

    Rift and WoW are in a totally different universe when it comes to fluff compared to probably any other MMO out there. Now they just need player housing and the gigantic amount of fluff that will come with it.

    Replayability
    Rift > ToR

    TOR as it is now is somewhat a single player game dressed up as a MMO. The main storyline for classes is pretty good, and you can do it for every class if you wish with a different story, but the game as it is now will not keep many peoples interest past one to two months without a serious injection of new content and fixes. For the obscene amount of money that was spent on TOR the game should be more than it is. Rift has far more replayability as it is now, but is also dying out somewhat and needs something to shake things up a bit.
    Last edited by Sargonnas_KoA; 01-04-2012 at 03:48 PM.

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    You missed the fact that there is next to nothing to do in Tor once you hit 50 compared to Rift at release. I won't even touch the "difficulty".

    TOR as it is now is somewhat a single player game dressed up as a MMO
    /thread
    Last edited by opaque; 01-04-2012 at 03:45 PM.
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    This imgur link is all you really need to know about the people that play tor:

    http://imgur.com/a/WMAul#0

    It's safe for work. It's just a bunch of screencaps from their forums.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Purutzil View Post
    What... ToR pvp >> Rift PvP? What have you been smoking? Maybe its just me but ToR has a lot less pvp, and the wf itself are so uninspired that I can't find fun in doing any of them. The 'pvp planet' is basically a carebear world were one side ignores the other most the time. Dunno, my two cents at the area I found rather off. Could go on about crafting, but I guess it is at least different in tor, even if I think its the worst crafting system I've ever seen.

    Oh and just an FYI, its been out less then a month, even including the 'early access' or whatever.
    Huttball is a significant step forward from anything Rift has to offer in terms of Warfront IMO. Even the simple node control warzone offers some intrigue and inventiveness in that you are both aboard a large ship that is attempting to seize control of the planet's weaponry, but to do so you have to capture one of three turrets to shoot down the opposition's ship. Further, you always respawn back in your ship and must choose which hoverbike to take down to the battlefield depending on where attacks are heading and where you can hop into the fray the quickest.

    The assault type Warzone is, quite simply, amazing fun and really bring me back to one of my most enjoyable gaming experiences of all time - Unreal Tournament 2K3. Place a bomb at either door to break through to the next room. Once there, lower either bridge to get across the chasm so you can bomb your way into the factory. Once into the factory, break your way into the data core and download the data from the enemy.

    Rift PvP, given the large number of soul combinations available, is extremely random wherein it is nearly impossible to plan anything out and almost as impossible to react to things in any timely fashion. Further, the rank imbalance that currently plagues the Warfronts is huge detriment to the fun of the game as it's not a great deal of fun being one or two-shot by a P8 Mage when you are a P4 Rogue. Likewise, it's laughable to open on a P7 Cleric or Warrior as a P4 Rogue only to see their health go absolutely nowhere and yours drop almost instantly. In ToR, there are no "brackets" and all levels use the same queue. Any lower levels have their stats automatically bolstered to put them on par with the highest level present in the Warzone such that the only disadvantage you are at is due to the talent points higher levels have gotten the opportunity to spend that you haven't. Once there are more level 50s in game, you can bet the system will be split into level 10-49 and level 50 for warzones. It's a much better implementation overall and the net result is that queue times are extremely low and I can jump right into the action and have a great time without much concern given to gear or level.

    [quote]My best guess as to the seamlessness:

    In WoW, events get "backdated" to when the player activated them. If any player involved has significant lag, this can result in the engine retroactively changing what happened. So say I have a pretty high ping time, and I use an ability like a charge that includes a stun effect. I push my button, and a fraction of a second later you use a power. Your power appears to take effect right away, but when my power gets in, the engine realizes that actually that couldn't have happened in that order and changes what happened. (This was especially noticeable when jousting in the tourney with high ping times.)

    In Rift, there's much, much, less of that. Powers might take effect, but they'll take effect roughly in order. The game feels more "laggy", but I've never had the game suddenly teleport me to where it now realizes I should have been. Overall, I like this choice better; the information presented to me is more accurate, and there's less chance that I'll be penalized because something I did got retroactively cancelled due to ping time.-/quote]
    I'm afraid you've missed the mark, friend . I'm not talking about lag even in the slightest. My latency to both my Rift and ToR servers is under 80ms and my abilities fire, on my screen, instantaneously. Rift and ToR have an "inherent" latency that differs between the two. In the case of ToR, the game adheres strictly to animations and not to the actual effects or abilities. This means that if you enact a particular ability, the moment you enact it, the animation will immediately begin - but will not stop until it is complete. WoW cares less about animations and more about the actual effects and abilities. A great YouTube video was done (here: ) that demonstrates exactly what is meant by this. In WoW, if you mount up (which is a 1.5s cast), the moment your cast bar is full (even a split second earlier given action queueing) you can move in any direction and for a split second it appears as though your unmounted character is moving at the speed of your mount despite there being no steed beneath you. This gives the combat in WoW a very crisp and responsive feel as the game does not wait for animations and instead enacts abilities as fast as it can possibly process them. This means that PvP, especially, is very crisp, responsiveness and requires much quicker reflexes. Further, things move in WoW PvP in a fluid and synchronous manner as a result.

    Rift suffers from the same aforementioned ailment as ToR although to a lesser extent. Rift does not adhere to animations as strictly as ToR but it most certainly doesn't prioritize abilities and their effects over everything else. Take the following example, which I am stealing from one of my own threads in the PvP forum on this board:

    Take a WoW Rogue for example. When I land Cheap Shot on a target, they immediately freeze in their tracks. The animation of Cheap Shot is perfectly in sync with the "click" sound effect it makes and, even still, is perfectly in sync with the stun, swirl effect animating above the affected target's head. After two seconds, the Rogue lands a Kidney Shot that also lands cleanly but the target trinkets this stun and immediately starts moving away from you. Everything seems instantaneous, synchronized and fluid. It allows for PvP battles to be almost a "chess match" wherein you are reacting in real time with your opponent, attempting to think two to three steps ahead to gain an advantage.

    In Rift, I (and many others whom have posted in a previous thread I made on this topic) don't get this feeling. I land Paralyzing Strike on a target and they still scoot forward perhaps a half meter or so. The sound effect the ability makes does not seem in line with the effect itself and it makes it very difficult to time anything properly. The target gets out of Paralyzing Strike so I attempt to put Malicious Strike up but it takes two to three key presses before the ability is able to be used despite, on my screen, me being practically on top of my opponent. Once Malicious Strike finally lands, it only lasts a second or two given the nature of Rift's diminishing returns system. I chase after the target trying to pump damage into them but I'm unable to hit them consistently and it throws off the timing of every ability I'd typically use at opportune times.

    The above is the best I can do to explain the problem and this unsynchronized, random nature of Rift PvP is what keeps me out of Warfronts indefinitely and keeps me going back to WoW just to get my PvP fix. Eventually, I'm going to have to make a choice. WoW's PvE is good but I prefer Rift's. However, would WoW's PvE be good enough to draw me away in light of the PvP being vastly more fun? While I can't say now, I wanted to explain this to you as I love this game and want it to succeed indefinitely.

  9. #9
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    You presume to compare Rift and ToR and don't even mention the class systems?

    Class System
    Rift >> ToR

    It isn't even close. ToR doesn't even have dual speccing, and the trees (at least for assassin) have no real choices. It also uses the WoW model to discourage respeccing by making it more expensive each time. (Why?!) The only upside to ToRs class system that I can see is that maybe it is easier to balance and game balance is better. But that's only because they eliminated any opportunity for players to theorycraft and create unexpected builds.

    This alone makes ToR unplayable for me. I know there are some people who hate "bring the player, not the class" and love to have a single well-defined role, but I can't fathom why. ToR is a giant leap backward in terms of game design IMO.
    Last edited by Beckmann; 01-04-2012 at 04:02 PM.

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    As a MMO, the question to ask is when does the game begin and does it have an ending.

    Most players will state that the game does not begin until you hit max level. That all the time getting to max level is learning the class, the terrain and tweaking your toon. When I played TOR, it seemed to me that the beginning was level 1. Now that in itself is not a bad thing. The issue becomes, as was mentioned, is what do you do when you hit max level? Without an endgame, it is not a MMO. It is a RPG that you invest X hours into to solve puzzles and move on to the next game.

    As far as this list goes . . .

    Story - Probably SW just because people have invested chunks of their life into that lore already. So they have an idea. However, for me . . . honestly, I don't care about the story, the lore, et al.

    Sound - I would say a toss up honestly. Tor has great voice and cutscenes. But nowhere did I feel a shiver while playing in a dark room. I have with Rift. But I would not argue with anyone who stated that the sound is > TOR.

    Combat - Rift > Tor. I found the combat very predictable and it didn't matter too many times what buttons I mashed.

    Replayability - A push. Originally I was going to give this to TOR, but other than the cutscenes it is still a lot of go and get X items for me from Y place. Sure, the immersion level is higher because of the cutscenes, but it is still the same mechanic.

    But here is something that no one mentions . . .

    Try playing TOR with the sound off or very low. It is near impossible. Sound is vital to the game. This to me, is one reason I do not like it. It will kill vent/ts/mumble for people.

  11. #11
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    Well, if you're talking about that, rift clearly has that the same way WoW does, I regularly start riding around starting a few ms before the bar fills up, works fine.

    I dunno. People keep saying that rift feels "clunky" to them, but I've almost-never been able to reproduce it. Or, heck, even get a coherent and testable claim out of it.

    There is one exception: Messing around with AMD's "AMD Overdrive" overclocking software, I was able to break rift's timers and bar calculations by running live at a different clock speed than the system was at during boot. This produced a very noticeably clunky feel, where powers wouldn't really have taken effect when their bar was full, powers couldn't be used when the GCD was up, and so on. But that was purely a timing bug; turn off UsePerformanceCounters or whatever they called it, or use the BIOS to overclock, and the problem goes away.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Got ideas for improving the RIFT community? Feel free to PM me. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (NOTE NEW URL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beckmann View Post
    You presume to compare Rift and ToR and don't even mention the class systems?

    Class System
    Rift >> ToR

    It isn't even close. ToR doesn't even have dual speccing, and the trees (at least for assassin) have no real choices. The only upside to ToRs class system that I can see is that maybe it is easier to balance and game balance is better. But that's only because they eliminated any opportunity for players to theorycraft and create unexpected builds.

    This alone makes ToR unplayable for me. I know there are some people who hate "bring the player, not the class" and love to have a single well-defined role, but I can't fathom why. ToR is a giant leap backward in terms of game design IMO.
    You're absolutely right and I agree with you aside from the "unplayable" bit. I had to run and thus decided to end the post and no doubt left out some areas that deserved attention. The soul system in Rift is indeed significantly better than the class system in ToR.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daayou View Post
    As a MMO, the question to ask is when does the game begin and does it have an ending.

    Most players will state that the game does not begin until you hit max level. That all the time getting to max level is learning the class, the terrain and tweaking your toon. When I played TOR, it seemed to me that the beginning was level 1. Now that in itself is not a bad thing. The issue becomes, as was mentioned, is what do you do when you hit max level? Without an endgame, it is not a MMO. It is a RPG that you invest X hours into to solve puzzles and move on to the next game.

    As far as this list goes . . .

    Story - Probably SW just because people have invested chunks of their life into that lore already. So they have an idea. However, for me . . . honestly, I don't care about the story, the lore, et al.

    Sound - I would say a toss up honestly. Tor has great voice and cutscenes. But nowhere did I feel a shiver while playing in a dark room. I have with Rift. But I would not argue with anyone who stated that the sound is > TOR.

    Combat - Rift > Tor. I found the combat very predictable and it didn't matter too many times what buttons I mashed.

    Replayability - A push. Originally I was going to give this to TOR, but other than the cutscenes it is still a lot of go and get X items for me from Y place. Sure, the immersion level is higher because of the cutscenes, but it is still the same mechanic.

    But here is something that no one mentions . . .

    Try playing TOR with the sound off or very low. It is near impossible. Sound is vital to the game. This to me, is one reason I do not like it. It will kill vent/ts/mumble for people.
    I would argue (and can do so with substantial evidence) that ToR's endgame availability is on par with what Rift had at release.

  14. #14
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    I agree with most of what you're saying, but I can't fully endorse Tor's crafting model. It'll be interesting to see how it ages, but my biggest concern is the companion missions completely negate any reason to leave your ship. In most MMO's, after you're done questing, the only reason to go back to a zone is to pick up mats. There's a little bit out in the world, but it's not anything different than what you'd get from missions. Once everyone's done with the world, they'll stay on the fleet ship, send out companions, craft and auction items, then do either instanced pvp or flashpoints. Tor already has a staleness and single player problem - the worlds seem mostly empty. Mat Farming makes it less so, even if you barely see someone riding by at max speed to get to the next node.

    The single player thing is a big deal for me too. Lots of areas in Rift are pretty bare, and leveling alts is kinda lonely - but I still see people, lots of people for a year old game. I started up a warrior the other day, and there still was about 10 people in the starting area. Meridian is pretty jammed most of the time. Tor is at Full with queue times, and it seems like there's half the people there, and you're almost all alone once you get off the ships and out questing. - And I'm not max level, I'm in my 30's where lots of people should be.

    Tor is a resource hog. My computer probably needs an update, but I can't run anything while playing. Tor will use up every ounce of RAM that I have, get laggy as hell and even crash if I try. Rift, I can watch movies, surf the web, do whatever on dual monitors and it runs fine on max graphics.

    Also, pvp in Rift >Tor. not by much, but the responsiveness issue is way worse in Tor, sometimes locking you out of GCD for a second or more while you wait for the server to execute your last command and the graphic to occur.
    Whambam - Defiant Warrior - Deepwood

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    Well, if you're talking about that, rift clearly has that the same way WoW does, I regularly start riding around starting a few ms before the bar fills up, works fine.

    I dunno. People keep saying that rift feels "clunky" to them, but I've almost-never been able to reproduce it. Or, heck, even get a coherent and testable claim out of it.

    There is one exception: Messing around with AMD's "AMD Overdrive" overclocking software, I was able to break rift's timers and bar calculations by running live at a different clock speed than the system was at during boot. This produced a very noticeably clunky feel, where powers wouldn't really have taken effect when their bar was full, powers couldn't be used when the GCD was up, and so on. But that was purely a timing bug; turn off UsePerformanceCounters or whatever they called it, or use the BIOS to overclock, and the problem goes away.
    All I can say is that, as an Assassin in PvP, I am absolutely unable to time my abilities out with any precision in Rift whereas in WoW I was very deliberate and calculated with everything I did. There is an element of randomness and "clunkiness" in Rift that prevents, for me and quite a few that have echoed my sentiments on these very forums, any form of skillful play. As an Assassin I find the only viable means of playing my class to be mashing buttons in some priority to do as much damage as possible and hope that I am not CCd in some way or that the server doesn't tell me I'm out of range when it comes time interrupt something crucial or stun my opponent once their countless, instant cast, heals over time finally fall off (if at all). Additionally, I would note that the sheer amount of instant cast abilities in this game takes a lot of skill out of PvP alone. I hardly ever see any healer cast a single ability when in combat with them. They instead just repeatedly jump while running a straight line. In WoW (and in ToR) you have the concept of fake-casting or using LoS to bait interrupts so you can freely cast. It was a skill absolutely necessary for any high level of PvP and is something that I feel is absolutely crucial to competitive PvP of any amount of fun.
    Last edited by Synovia; 01-04-2012 at 04:15 PM.

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