Should it matter what other players do?

[Europe]

I see a lot of comments about how people dislike OTHERS leveling too fast, or disliking solo content, or being too concerned with items/dps/raiding and yet it's also a popular idea that areas should be non-instanced and group-required, and thus you should be forced to play with these players where they exist. A curious mix.

On the surface, it seems logical that if others are leveling too quickly for you, or engaging in any other kind of playstyle that you don't agree with, you could simply play with other players and go to the beat of your own drum. But I must point out that you could do this in virtually any game to some success. EQ2 being a prime example.

So I ask any willing respondents, how do you reconcile these ideas from that first paragraph?

[Durnkrag]

I think it was more a case of people advocating things like non-instanced group related content, yes if you want to take part in this content you'll need to group. You won't be forced to take part in this content, however it should be rewarding to do so.

Raiding is going to be a large part of this game. I think the numbers of people wanting to make sure that this content is a fully fleshed, balanced and as interesting as possible highlights the amount of interest at this point in the game.

[Kalbuir]

I can only respond from what in my mind is the reasoning behind it, I think it mostly has to do with fear. People find it matters what other players do or want to do in the game. Because they are affraid it will effect their gameplay.

Some examples:
1. Solo / none-raiding players are affraid raiding will be the main end-content for the players in RIFT. Locking them out of anything to do when they reach max level.
2. Raiders are affraid there won't be enough raid content and instead the majority of the development time will be devoted to solo / small group content.
3. Crafters are affraid they won't be able to sell their wares because adventurerer can get better gear easier.
4. Adventerer's are affraid they need to pay loads of money to crafters to get remotely usefull gear.
5. PVP'ers are affraid they have no one to pvp with if there isn't some motivation behind pvping
6. None PVPers are affraid they are forced into pvp and griefed / ganked because of it

I think we are all (even if its a little bit) are affraid RIFT won't be the game we are hoping for, balance is key I think it is possible to make all groups you and I list happy in one game. But chances still are high that some of the type of players will be dissapointed at one point or another.

Regards,
Kalbuir

[Kendricke]

I can only respond from what in my mind is the reasoning behind it, I think it mostly has to do with fear. People find it matters what other players do or want to do in the game. Because they are affraid it will effect their gameplay.

Some examples:
1. Solo / none-raiding players are affraid raiding will be the main end-content for the players in RIFT. Locking them out of anything to do when they reach max level.
2. Raiders are affraid there won't be enough raid content and instead the majority of the development time will be devoted to solo / small group content.
3. Crafters are affraid they won't be able to sell their wares because adventurerer can get better gear easier.
4. Adventerer's are affraid they need to pay loads of money to crafters to get remotely usefull gear.
5. PVP'ers are affraid they have no one to pvp with if there isn't some motivation behind pvping
6. None PVPers are affraid they are forced into pvp and griefed / ganked because of it

I think we are all (even if its a little bit) are affraid RIFT won't be the game we are hoping for, balance is key I think it is possible to make all groups you and I list happy in one game. But chances still are high that some of the type of players will be dissapointed at one point or another.

Regards,
Kalbuir

I think this post very quickly gets to the truth of the matter for the overwhelming majority of complaints.

[Apoth]

Raiding is going to be a large part of this game.

and they(trion) said this where? no doubt there will be raiding but a "large part" is still debatable.


unfortunately it does matter to some what others do, because in their mind THEIR playstyle should be the only playstyle.

you already have the Raiders showing up early on this forum trying to give the illusion that raiding/grouping is the only way to play. heck i even read one of the raiders say that if raiders leave then the casual players will leave too because they don't have nothing to aspire too .... lol come on really?

you will have the extreme soloist come to this forum soon (probably after e3) saying that all content should be solo content that soloers should be equal to raiders in progression and that if Trion doesn't cater completely to the soloer this game will fail.

and of course you will have the L33t PVPers come to this forum, calling anyone who doesn't play PVP a carebear (or worse). proclaiming PVP is the only skillful thing to do in MMOs that anyone who plays for immersion/pve should go play the sims.

[Matt-Kire]

Options... Cafeteria-style MMOs... no Themeparks...

I want an MMO that I can play for me... you for you... and everyone else to fit their individual likes/dislikes

I don't control you... so please don't try and control me

[Arithion]

I can only respond from what in my mind is the reasoning behind it, I think it mostly has to do with fear. People find it matters what other players do or want to do in the game. Because they are affraid it will effect their gameplay.

Some examples:
1. Solo / none-raiding players are affraid raiding will be the main end-content for the players in RIFT. Locking them out of anything to do when they reach max level.
2. Raiders are affraid there won't be enough raid content and instead the majority of the development time will be devoted to solo / small group content.
3. Crafters are affraid they won't be able to sell their wares because adventurerer can get better gear easier.
4. Adventerer's are affraid they need to pay loads of money to crafters to get remotely usefull gear.
5. PVP'ers are affraid they have no one to pvp with if there isn't some motivation behind pvping
6. None PVPers are affraid they are forced into pvp and griefed / ganked because of it

I think we are all (even if its a little bit) are affraid RIFT won't be the game we are hoping for, balance is key I think it is possible to make all groups you and I list happy in one game. But chances still are high that some of the type of players will be dissapointed at one point or another.

Regards,
Kalbuir

I think some of this is the driving force behind the recent discussions. At the same time I see a slightly simplified version in my mind.

Some people prefer soloing, other people prefer grouping.

In a nutshell both of these factions just want to make sure the content is balanced. They don't truly care what the other does - they just both want to have content they can access in the playstyle that prefer.

Easy to say - difficult to accomplish.

[Elladar]

I see a lot of comments about how people dislike OTHERS leveling too fast, or disliking solo content, or being too concerned with items/dps/raiding and yet it's also a popular idea that areas should be non-instanced and group-required, and thus you should be forced to play with these players where they exist. A curious mix.

On the surface, it seems logical that if others are leveling too quickly for you, or engaging in any other kind of playstyle that you don't agree with, you could simply play with other players and go to the beat of your own drum. But I must point out that you could do this in virtually any game to some success. EQ2 being a prime example.

So I ask any willing respondents, how do you reconcile these ideas from that first paragraph?

I have spend alot of time on thinking about "How can developers "force" people like me [solo-leveler-untill-max-level] get in groups or spend more time in particular area before I proceed with my leveling" And then suddent I was "Enliightened", due to the fact that there will be 50 levels in the game, I assume that we will learn next spell/ability rank each 5-6 levels, thus all/most spells will have 10 ranks. If each rank increases spells damage by [previous rank + 20% of previous rank damage] thus by the time you are lvl 50 your man spell/ability would increase in strenght by 300%. Now where I had a curious idea, while you are leveling in each particular zone there will be scrolls that increase your current spells damage by +1%, +2%, +3%, and you have to use scroll 1 [+1%] on our spell before you can use scroll 2 [+2%], and then finaly a "Master" scroll 3 [+3%] therefore people who level up fast, and skip these scrolls will do less damage [eg 15% less damage] than a player who leveled up and used each of the 3 scrolls on his spell each time he increased spells rank. While these 2 players have same gear and same AA, their damage output will differ by 15% [or something more acceptable] to show which player has trully "Mastered" his class, and who was half-harted about his character. But now that I am reading this, it actually sounds waaay OP [I got the idea from EQ, while reading up its AA] and maybe people who do less damage will be less likely to be invited into raid, however on the other hand IF AA can change players dps/abilites strenght then all people will have unique dps depending on the way they change their AA, so my idea does not sound that crazy anymore...

[Jadden]

Myslef I prefer grp/raid content but will be soloing some as well, but to each his own, but in my opinion there should be plenty of solo content for the people that like to solo and plenty of grp content for people that like to grp. I may get crucified for this but there should some raid content at release notice I didnt say plenty, but enough high end grp content/ raid content to last 2 to 3 months. And at release have some high end content set aside that may not be finished quite yet but will be finished in 3 months after launch. Because I think that the people that will be max lvl in 1 months time will be the minority, so more solo/grp content at release, then release more high end stuff a little later on.

[Slyde]

I can only respond from what in my mind is the reasoning behind it, I think it mostly has to do with fear. People find it matters what other players do or want to do in the game. Because they are affraid it will effect their gameplay.

Some examples:
1. Solo / none-raiding players are affraid raiding will be the main end-content for the players in RIFT. Locking them out of anything to do when they reach max level.
2. Raiders are affraid there won't be enough raid content and instead the majority of the development time will be devoted to solo / small group content.
3. Crafters are affraid they won't be able to sell their wares because adventurerer can get better gear easier.
4. Adventerer's are affraid they need to pay loads of money to crafters to get remotely usefull gear.
5. PVP'ers are affraid they have no one to pvp with if there isn't some motivation behind pvping
6. None PVPers are affraid they are forced into pvp and griefed / ganked because of it

I think we are all (even if its a little bit) are affraid RIFT won't be the game we are hoping for, balance is key I think it is possible to make all groups you and I list happy in one game. But chances still are high that some of the type of players will be dissapointed at one point or another.

Regards,
Kalbuir

Well said !

To answer the OP, early in a game I tend to join a lot of pugs (pick up groups) and I make friends. Some of them are casual 'enjoy the journey' type players (like me) and I continue to group with them for a long time. Other are the 'rush to max level' type, and we may only group together for a few levels.

But, in the end I make friends with both types of players.

It only matters what other players do if it directly affects my quality of game-play.

[Winedan]

I see a lot of comments about how people dislike OTHERS leveling too fast, or disliking solo content, or being too concerned with items/dps/raiding and yet it's also a popular idea that areas should be non-instanced and group-required, and thus you should be forced to play with these players where they exist. A curious mix.

On the surface, it seems logical that if others are leveling too quickly for you, or engaging in any other kind of playstyle that you don't agree with, you could simply play with other players and go to the beat of your own drum. But I must point out that you could do this in virtually any game to some success. EQ2 being a prime example.

So I ask any willing respondents, how do you reconcile these ideas from that first paragraph?

Good post Europe.
Tell you the truth I think that players fear the game being structured to far 1 way or the other. There are a small amount of people in the Anti Twink crowd that, yea... are to proactive in voicing a concern about other peoples playstyles. Overall though I do think a tun of the this stuff is people being afraid the game will go to far in a unwanted direction.

For me I completely DESPISE fully soloable games (WoW leveling...), but tell you the truth, as of late im soloing more then grouping. The point where I turn against players that like soloing is when they think the entire game should be structured around soloing. Their main argument is "Players can still group if they want too"... the problem is, in games that are tuned for a Soloer, Grouping players have a hard time reaping the same rewards. They get less exp... less loot (Because it must be devided amongst the group)... so it illiminates the drive to group in the first place.

There is also a small contingint of people out there (Myself included) who completly HATE equal reward for solo content and group content. This is games that allow solo players to aquire the same quality of items as grouping players. (I know casual people get frustrated at this and im not trying to be mean but...) Players that have to work together to accomplish somthing should always be given a bigger reward... This is because group mobs must (in my mind) be scaled so that groups as a whole need to be playing their "A" game in order to defeat... they are harder.

Harder = better reward

[Kula]

Why does it matter? It's an interesting question to ponder and I will answer only for myself:

Insta-travel means I will be expected to be able to get to a group anywhere in the world when I want to experience that world.
Maps with everything pre-located means that my explorations of the world and knowledge of its geography are meaningless.
All solo content means a lack of the community that I play MMORPGs for.
Lack of a meaningfdul death penalty means a lack of edge-of-my-seat gaming and less fun.
Crafting items being the best in the game means that my competitiveness will force me to do something I do not enjoy.
Unrealistic armor means that immersion is lost for me if I have to adventure with a pink nightied warrior who is MT for my guild.

To summarize, the game mechanics will dictate the type of community that arises within the game and as I will be playing that game I want mechanics that will attract and hold the type of community I want to be part of: one that is happily interdependent and supportive of those around them.

[Jadden]

Harder = better reward

I agree completely

[Winedan]

Why does it matter? It's an interesting question to ponder and I will answer only for myself:

Its a good/relevent question if you ask me.

When a girl breaks up with her boyfriend out of no where... the first question is asks her is Why?

Why = Ability to understand the root of the issue so it can be addressed.

Erope has a great question imo... and what better place to ask it then here =)

[Elladar]

Maps with everything pre-located means that my explorations of the world and knowledge of its geography are meaningless.

Personally I would love to have mini map ONLY, thereby encouraging players to either pick up skill that allowes you to create a world map of some sort, or remember where places are located. Much more fun in my opinion!

Lack of a meaningfdul death penalty means a lack of edge-of-my-seat gaming and less fun.

This is definetly one of the things that is hard to implement, make it too severe and alot of players start to complain, make it too simple people will start to complain that it is too "linear/simple/boring" and should be changed. Thus it will be hard to please people. I belong to the group who would love to see and harsh/meaningful death penalty! [Eg xp loss, or reputation loss of some sort]