Raids will no longer have 10-man versions

[Kanudil]

I'm sorry that you just can't comprehend the extensive nature of my point. It's been widely debated, and besides the people who are used to WoW's ez-mode system, 10 mans lessens content and gameplay, and minimizes interaction between the community. I'm guessing you're a proponent of WoW's LFD tool as well, aren't you? If can't manage your time and put more effort into it, and socialize with more people, maybe an MMO is not for you.


-edit- Besides, there's still 10 man content which I'm fine with, what I'm not okay with is the same raid with a 10 man and a 20 man version.

[Callipygous]

For the posters that keep on this issue. listen the podcast and go look at Zor's post. He obviously tells everyone they cannot balance the soul system around 10 mans.Also the game is also still in beta things are subject to CHANGE read the EULA, that you signed everytime you downloaded the beta.Nobody tricked you or even lied to you......IF YOU WANT TO CANCEL you can still cancel your pre-order.

Whining about how Trion wronged you is wrong in itself be constructive with your feedback if you want change.We haven't reached endgame or seen the endgame raid rifts, so complaining about that already questions your motives.Also this whole thing pretty much proves what type of players they DO not want, in their game and the type of players they do want.

[Nullset]

Posters like Kanudil remind me of why I enjoy 10 man content more. Thumbs down on this decision.

[Viryl]

If can't manage your time and put more effort into it, and socialize with more people, maybe an MMO is not for you.

MMO means alot of people playing a game...Not that you have to be social.

And this has nothing to do with being social.

I am sorrry that you were left out of some 10 man groups in your last guild, but maybe you socializing just weren't enough, and they needed someone that knew what they were doing!?

[Flozzin]

10 man's was too small. You c an't even call that a raid. I'm sorry that some of you cannot seem to find more people that align with your play styles. That sucks. But this game isn't here to cater to everyone's needs. It cannot be everything for all people.

They never said 10 mans are NEVER going to happen. They are just stating that they won't be there for launch. I suggest find another 10 man group of people and getting to know them, and combine into a 20.

WoW had 40 man raids. I know its not the only game to have large raids, and I'm sure there was probably something that had even larger. Personally I loved the 40 man raids. Sure there was drama, complaining, back stabbing and all that. But guess what? We still downed bosses. We still got through content. And really it made it even more epic when we did. Not only did we defeat a computerized boss zomg, we worked together, overcame our difference, and for a few hours, put aside the fact that some of us hated each other and completed a task.

If you can't work together with people I don't see how you function in the real world. My workplace has 50 people in my department alone that I see and talk to daily. Do we always have to interact about our job? No, but the possibility is strong that we will. My workplace has2500 people. And we are going to add to that by 30% soon.

[Negai]

This discussion has been moved to a sticky at the top of the page.

[BurntToast]

Bad decision imo.

While I'd prefer all content to be one group ideally (yeah I know, hardcore raiders would really cry about that) 10 man is not too bad. Most people can find 10 good friends to play with, and if you don't have that many regularly on at once you can usually find enough non-idiot random people to fill it out. It's a tolerable compromise, IMO, and would work well enough for everyone (especially since they were doing 20 man option too).

The more people, the less it becomes about playing the game and the more it becomes about scheduling, drama, babysitting idiots who you need to fill out the group, dealing with people you don't like, and being compelled to play when you don't feel like it. It becomes less of a game and more of a second job, and I certainly don't need a second job that I don't get payed for. 20 is not as bad as 40, but it's a *LOT* worse then 10.

You say it's less epic but... lolwut? how is being a small cog in the giant raid machine more epic then being a legendary hero who's part of a small elite group tackling the same epic content? Epicness is about the enemies, and the setting, not the number of people you are zerging it down with.

[Kanudil]

MMO means alot of people playing a game...Not that you have to be social.

And this has nothing to do with being social.

I am sorrry that you were left out of some 10 man groups in your last guild, but maybe you socializing just weren't enough, and they needed someone that knew what they were doing!?

Socializing was in regards to just putting more effort into finding another 10 measly people to raid with, I mean theres a ton of subscribers, you're telling me you can't find another 10 people that you play with well together? Is your personality that unique that you can only tolerate the 9 other people in your guild?

Nice shot at my play ability, but I was in a top worldwide guild in EQ, that got all the server firsts from the start of the server up to about 2009, that's almost a decade of having server first. Can you say the same?

And hey, I made some WoW rager make a new account just to post something negative against me, /bow. Posters and people like Nullset remind me why I dropped WoW like a rock, because posters like that ruined the MMO completely with its give me ez mode whining and mentality.

And you still haven't refuted any of my points about 10 man raid versions of 20 man raids. Then again when the points that I make are also saying what the devs said about their reasoning for loss of 10 man raid versions, it's kind of hard to refute them except to white about how you can't handle finding 10 more people in a world composed of millions of players.


-edit- Toast, people are saying 10 mans are less epic in terms that the 10 man raid content cannot be tuned or created to involve a lot more because they're limited by 10 people. I.E. You can only have that much damage output, or that many adds, or that many things that you need to CC for an X amount of time, and the list goes on and on when it comes to 10 man. Bigger numbers simply allow for bigger, better, and more difficult content.

[Nullset]

Apparently anyone that doesn't agree with you is a "wow rager". The difference between you and me is your poor attitude is quite apparent by your posts while you had to resort to making up some bizarre background for me to make you feel better about yourself.

For the record I played EQ since beta and was also involved in many world firsts including winning the warrior best of the best for my server (Veeshan). In all honesty none of that really matters or is relevant to the point I was making your attitude and consideration for others playstyles is exactly the toxic attitude that makes me grateful I have a small close knit group of friends so I can avoid players such as yourself.

[Celimdor]

I dont mind to socialize to get down a boss, when i was playing Daoc to kill some bosses i ve seen raids of hundred people and this was epic ;) Also it was old school because most people who came did know that they ll never get a chance for a fat loot, but they came to be part of it and to enjoy this epic adventure. But seems now people act like spoiled kids, you just want to play with your "mature" "kickass" friends and keep all the fat loot just for you. I don't mind this attitude but if you keep thinking that way you cut yourself from new opportunities to meet cool people, since not everyone except you is ******ed... Having fun is not just being a selfish virtual Hero or God but to be part of a virtual world and to be kind enough to let everyone share this fun with you. If your mature enough you ll get my point. My real life is competitive enough, so if i m playing an MMO it's to relax in a fantasy world where you can see and life something different.
Rift offer solo, team and raid gameplay. Seems perfect for me i don t want to spend a year with the same 10 guys that i ll see everyday...

P.S: I m myslef competitive but sometimes i use my time for useless chatting, helping someone exploring a new zone, crafting for a noob a sword that he dreamed of since weeks or helping a raid of lowbies to get down a boss so they can share an "awesome" green loot. And this give me as much fun as farming points in PvP.
And the most epic fight i ever had was during an event when our small guild of 200 members messed up with the huge dominion guild of "Blood Monarchy" with over 2000 members, the fight moved in our town that we had to defend with guerilla tactics over a week. In this game it was all about "socialize or die alone"

[Xebeche]

For the posters that keep on this issue. listen the podcast and go look at Zor's post. He obviously tells everyone they cannot balance the soul system around 10 mans.Also the game is also still in beta things are subject to CHANGE read the EULA, that you signed everytime you downloaded the beta.Nobody tricked you or even lied to you......IF YOU WANT TO CANCEL you can still cancel your pre-order.

Whining about how Trion wronged you is wrong in itself be constructive with your feedback if you want change.We haven't reached endgame or seen the endgame raid rifts, so complaining about that already questions your motives.Also this whole thing pretty much proves what type of players they DO not want, in their game and the type of players they do want.

I lol'd at that...oh yes...its so HARD to balance stuff...it's complete bollocks. If you can balance 5 and 20 you can balance 10. It's these peoples JOB to know this stuff and if they seriously cant do it? Fire them and hire someone who knows how to do it.

What we have been given as reasons for dropping 10-man instanced raids are simply excuses that dont hold water. There is something else at play here.

[Zephix]

good post i agree with you, but think about out of the thousands of people playing this game or will play this game u dont think at least 20 will have the same timing to get a raid together? cmon now ive always been asked what times i can raid. we get together and discuss it if we all cant raid then we make another group that can. there is plenty of people in the game world to have the numbers u need to get stuff done. end of story... u just got to find them and believe me it aint hard

But that's the issue... I don't want to play with people who are just going to fail at the attempt on a 20 man raid. My time is valuable to me. I want to play content with my guild, with a higher chance of success. Losing is going to happen, sure... but playing with a public group only to have the main tank leave because the healer went to take a bio break, then the entire raid failing because ULTIrogue57 decided to try to stealth his way to see the next boss during this time... yeah.. forget that!

It isn't always that bad, no... but I like to avoid it for those reasons, anyway.

Join a guild that suits your schedule, it isn't that hard. Only the "world/realm first" chaser guilds will be doing the 4-6 hrs / 7 days/week thing. Most guilds I've seen have a much more relaxed schedule, even back in the 40 man days. Most also have a few subs so not being available every x night isn't an issue. Additionally, unless content is faceroll easy, a guild will progress much faster than pugs. Personally I'd much rather see harder content made that my 3 days/week guild may never see than have pugs roflstomping content the first week it is out.

The fact of the matter is there is no way to make the same fight mechanics equally difficult for groups of 10 and 20 people. One or the other will always be easier, often substantially so. Then there is the problem of reward balancing between the two to reflect the actual or perceived difference in difficulty. It is just as possible to design encounters for 20 that will weed out carrying too many bads as it is for 10 man (think pre-ferf Sunwell, Vash'j, Archimonde, etc). Additionally, bigger groups allow for a wider array of fight mechanics to be introduced, thereby making the fights feel more epic IMO.

I'm in a guild that suits my lifestyle as well as any guild could. The problem is that my hours are completely random and all over the place. Some nights I get off work at 11pm, others 1am or 4am. Some work-weeks I have saturday/sunday off, others I don't even get a weekend.

So, yeah... it isn't quite so easy for all of us. There are a lot of people out there who WANT 10-man raid content. Just look at this 190+ page thread... it's obvious there's interest here.

The big arguement I've seen so far, and as far as I can tell the only one with any weight at all, is that the development of 10-man version of 20-man content causes less time for the developers to create more 20-man and other world content/new development content. True, any development that isn't on the content YOU want, is time spent away from content YOU want... pretty simple logic involved there, right? Problem is, that's content YOU want.. not me. ;P See the issue? Just because you want time spent on other content, doesn't mean I wouldn't rather see it spent on 10-man raid content.

Other thing is that development time to make a raid 10-man compatable is much less time-consuming than creating anything else from scratch. Sure, a new piece of armor here and there can't compare... but "new content" sounds like you're wanting much more than a new set of armor or two, right? ;) Just imagine you have 2 guys working on raids.. one's starting the new dungeon while the other chops off some areas of the 20-man, or simply scales down the difficulty of some of the bosses and mob encounters. Then the other guy joins the second developer to finish up the new dungeon.

Just seems to me there's a way to do both, while taking only a small portion of development time away from what YOU want, so others can have what they want, too. Both parties win, though it does delay content a little. I just don't see it being a large enough delay in new content to warrant tossing out 10-man versions completely.

But, everybody has an opinion... Just mine.

[spimmy]

so silly to remove 10 mans

[MochaFlux]

so silly to remove 10 mans

so silly to drag up old threads and not read a stickied post by Scott Hartsman on the subject...

[Wifeagro]

so silly to drag up old threads and not read a stickied post by Scott Hartsman on the subject...

Agreed he should go back and listen to the podcast again. only two raids are no ten man all the Raid rifts still are 10 . as well as them stating there will be 10 mans in the near future for T1 and 2