I finally foudn what was missing in rift compared to others mmo

[darkchicken]

I would like to have a discussion about the combat in rift. Its not a QQ so please try to be constructive

Everytime i play rift for more then 3 hours,i get sleepy and have to take a break. In all the mmos i played (been doing that for 13 years now) , its the only one where this happen ... you know, getting bored. Ive played rift at launch up to GP release (got some server first in it) then came back at the launch of 1.8 (well a little bit before) end of 1.7

Dont misunderstand, i think rift is great and got the most "interesting" content to do but i cant help it, i cant play rift for too long before getting bored and have to take a break.

So it came to me while playing Guild Wars 2 and talking to my wife about it. Rift combat is clunky and dead. Ok lemme try to explain that.

Pay attention that english is not my mother tongue, im trying to express a feeling i got about the game, it may vary with others
--------------------------------------------------------------

Combat IS the game. If you remove fight, there is no rift. I cant help but feel in rift that the combat (as a warrior) is clunky. When i press the button, it doesnt feel smooth. Like if my character was delaying then deliver the skill in a fast manner then it stop again, the transition between attacks feel stiff. If you compare it to whatever other mmo (lets take wow or aion just as exemple). If you do an heroic strike, it goes out by itself at the next attack and it feel smooth or with aion, the responsivness of the attack is right on the spot. Like when i charge is where i hate my life or just after a riftwalk or trying to do the riftwalk. The clunkyness of it make me feel like not wanting to use these skills. It doesnt feel smooth, it feel hard, like it was not supposed to happen.

Second thing is, most of the stuff is tank and spank going from expert to just random stuff around, not talking about raid right now. I jump in a pull, do my threat, they die, move to the next and repeat for every dungeons. Nothing ever change, nothing is special. Like if you know the dungeon, well every pulls will be like that forever! There is no reaction or gotta move in all the trash and most of the bosses their mechanics can be ignored or are really weak. I really miss the old expert before i left, they were more challenging but still dead, tank and spank but mobs were hitting harder. Not saying that others mmo are doing it better (some are in my opinion) but i just feel so bored when going into an expert, no surprise, nothing to watch for, just steamrolling.

The game focuses too much on rotations then instinct. What i mean by that is, you use your skill in a certain order to maximise damage (which is logical) where as using your skill for a situation depending on what is happening. Like with my tank, i run toward the group, press my maccro, spread my dots , promise of steel then just 111,2,111,2,111,2,111,2,111,2. Every single pull is like that, monsters or bosses no difference, i do that and i win. I just feel like we should use, time the abilities and them being more mobile and/or objectives specific, you know, you do it for a goal other then damage.

So lets take AP for exemple. Every pull i do the same stuff up to the first boss. There i tank and spank until pillar, hide rinse and repeat. Go to falcon boss, tank and spank. Go to the next boss, do the same thing every pulls, no differences, no secrets. I tank and spank the blood boss, healer gotta dispel. Then i go to the next boss doing the same stuff. Tank and spank it. We go to the last boss, tank and spank it while someone dispel once in a while. There you go, if you do it again, you do the SAME EXACT stuff everytime.

It just feel like its too rotation centric. You do a boss mechanic then come back to your rotation. I dont feel like im in a fight, i feel like i play guitar hero sometime, doing a perfect on a tune if i hit my rotation flawlesly. Often its mostly, i stand in front of the mob and whack him until he die, nothing happen else then that for 90% of the mobs in this game

Another thing is most of the melee attacks are not flashy. I dont say that i need a nuclear explosion every time i hit but other then the riftblade, its hard to tell what the warrior is only by looking at him. Whatever spec i play, when i look at the scree i seem to do only the 2 same animations for hours and hours.

--------------------------------------------

When i talk about the combat i dont talk about the souls and the synergy, i really love the system but i think this is why the games are growing AWAY from the talent trees. Like WoW:MoP, D3, GW2 because they see the problems its give, you become static.

I dont have a particular suggestion ... i came here to see if some people had the feeling too or if people had great ideas. Perhaps smoothing the skill queuing would make it better? You know, if Rift could have lets say Tera kind of gameplay ... man i would be on Rift all day long!

Now i know it is a mmo, it is like that yadiyada, ive been around for quite a while and i tried most of the stuff that is out right now. Dont think i HATE rift, i love it and im here to give suggestion or gather ideas to make it even more awesome. Everything in rift i love except that part. I love doing rifts, ember isle is awesome, instant adventures etc. But the combat being the thing you do the most often is the point lacking in this game

Rift have so much potential and with the upcoming expension, im pumped! I would just like to be able to play it longer and not getting bored by repetitive/dead combat.

[Muffinmans]

I would like to have a discussion about the combat in rift. Its not a QQ so please try to be constructive

Everytime i play rift for more then 3 hours,i get sleepy and have to take a break. In all the mmos i played (been doing that for 13 years now) , its the only one where this happen ... you know, getting bored. Ive played rift at launch up to GP release (got some server first in it) then came back at the launch of 1.8 (well a little bit before) end of 1.7

Dont misunderstand, i think rift is great and got the most "interesting" content to do but i cant help it, i cant play rift for too long before getting bored and have to take a break.

So it came to me while playing Guild Wars 2 and talking to my wife about it. Rift combat is clunky and dead. Ok lemme try to explain that.

Pay attention that english is not my mother tongue, im trying to express a feeling i got about the game, it may vary with others
--------------------------------------------------------------

Combat IS the game. If you remove fight, there is no rift. I cant help but feel in rift that the combat (as a warrior) is clunky. When i press the button, it doesnt feel smooth. Like if my character was delaying then deliver the skill in a fast manner then it stop again, the transition between attacks feel stiff. If you compare it to whatever other mmo (lets take wow or aion just as exemple). If you do an heroic strike, it goes out by itself at the next attack and it feel smooth or with aion, the responsivness of the attack is right on the spot. Like when i charge is where i hate my life or just after a riftwalk or trying to do the riftwalk. The clunkyness of it make me feel like not wanting to use these skills. It doesnt feel smooth, it feel hard, like it was not supposed to happen.

Second thing is, most of the stuff is tank and spank going from expert to just random stuff around, not talking about raid right now. I jump in a pull, do my threat, they die, move to the next and repeat for every dungeons. Nothing ever change, nothing is special. Like if you know the dungeon, well every pulls will be like that forever! There is no reaction or gotta move in all the trash and most of the bosses their mechanics can be ignored or are really weak. I really miss the old expert before i left, they were more challenging but still dead, tank and spank but mobs were hitting harder. Not saying that others mmo are doing it better (some are in my opinion) but i just feel so bored when going into an expert, no surprise, nothing to watch for, just steamrolling.

The game focuses too much on rotations then instinct. What i mean by that is, you use your skill in a certain order to maximise damage (which is logical) where as using your skill for a situation depending on what is happening. Like with my tank, i run toward the group, press my maccro, spread my dots , promise of steel then just 111,2,111,2,111,2,111,2,111,2. Every single pull is like that, monsters or bosses no difference, i do that and i win. I just feel like we should use, time the abilities and them being more mobile and/or objectives specific, you know, you do it for a goal other then damage.

So lets take AP for exemple. Every pull i do the same stuff up to the first boss. There i tank and spank until pillar, hide rinse and repeat. Go to falcon boss, tank and spank. Go to the next boss, do the same thing every pulls, no differences, no secrets. I tank and spank the blood boss, healer gotta dispel. Then i go to the next boss doing the same stuff. Tank and spank it. We go to the last boss, tank and spank it while someone dispel once in a while. There you go, if you do it again, you do the SAME EXACT stuff everytime.

It just feel like its too rotation centric. You do a boss mechanic then come back to your rotation. I dont feel like im in a fight, i feel like i play guitar hero sometime, doing a perfect on a tune if i hit my rotation flawlesly. Often its mostly, i stand in front of the mob and whack him until he die, nothing happen else then that for 90% of the mobs in this game

Another thing is most of the melee attacks are not flashy. I dont say that i need a nuclear explosion every time i hit but other then the riftblade, its hard to tell what the warrior is only by looking at him. Whatever spec i play, when i look at the scree i seem to do only the 2 same animations for hours and hours.

--------------------------------------------

When i talk about the combat i dont talk about the souls and the synergy, i really love the system but i think this is why the games are growing AWAY from the talent trees. Like WoW:MoP, D3, GW2 because they see the problems its give, you become static.

I dont have a particular suggestion ... i came here to see if some people had the feeling too or if people had great ideas. Perhaps smoothing the skill queuing would make it better? You know, if Rift could have lets say Tera kind of gameplay ... man i would be on Rift all day long!

Now i know it is a mmo, it is like that yadiyada, ive been around for quite a while and i tried most of the stuff that is out right now. Dont think i HATE rift, i love it and im here to give suggestion or gather ideas to make it even more awesome. Everything in rift i love except that part. I love doing rifts, ember isle is awesome, instant adventures etc. But the combat being the thing you do the most often is the point lacking in this game

Rift have so much potential and with the upcoming expension, im pumped! I would just like to be able to play it longer and not getting bored by repetitive/dead combat.

I actually really love rift combat. It is more exciting and engaging than most other mmos imo.
Whenever I tried to do dungeons in WoW, I too would fall asleep. But in Rift, I very rarely fall asleep :P
I guess it is just a personal preference, maybe its the class your playing? I love my cleric, but I got a rogue to 50 and really cant stand playing it, its just so boring :P I would try a cleric or mage, maybe a warrior isn't your thing?

[darkchicken]

I actually really love rift combat. It is more exciting and engaging than most other mmos imo.
Whenever I tried to do dungeons in WoW, I too would fall asleep. But in Rift, I very rarely fall asleep :P
I guess it is just a personal preference, maybe its the class your playing? I love my cleric, but I got a rogue to 50 and really cant stand playing it, its just so boring :P I would try a cleric or mage, maybe a warrior isn't your thing?

Perhaps! it would be a new for me. I do warriors ever since i can, shiny plate and 2 handed weapons make me go crazy hehe. I did feel it was not as bad as a caster though (played a mage).

By curiosity, what spec was the rogue and the cleric?

[Credo]

If you get bored as a Rogue in dungeon runs spec 51 BD.

[Sabryn]

I pretty much stopped doing experts after getting so bored of them. I started running mainly as DPS or Support, but when that got boring I built a tank spec and it was fun for a while but after so long I was texting on my phone and spamming 111, 112, 11q, 111, 111e with my other hand. I actually love the combat, especially as a melee rogue (riftstalker in particular), but the dungeons are such a bore I can't be bothered with them anymore. Probably why I mostly only PvP or do IAs and Invasions.

Anyway, I've posted about what would make dungeons fun and engaging in the suggestions thread "Awesome (?) MMO Ideas" here's a snip:

"Experts are always an AoE snoozefest now, what we need is some dynamic, engaging encounters that really test your nerves. Encounters don't necessarily have to mean combat, either. DDO does the dungeon thing pretty well, one called "The Crucible" was one of my favorite places as a rogue, because I could jump through traps and swim to sneak off with a key and do mazes and all kinds of things that aren't JUST combat.

- Traps or danger zones to disable/avoid. This would add a whole new dynamic to dungeon running. Maybe your faced with a dozen groups of more snoozefest AoE fodder, OR you can send a trapsmith up the trap, disable it, and sneak by without falling asleep at your keyboard. Or you could potentially use the trap AGAINST the mob. Add things like cave-ins, falling bridges, hidden spike pits, etc. Also, since this would almost always cut off the route back through the dungeon, make it so if someone dies and can't be resurrected, they will zone in at the end of the trap zone. You could even add achievements for avoiding it for those in to that. This idea also corresponds to the next point:

- Sense of Urgency - NOT a leaderboard score. Make it intense and engaging like racing to a safe spot as something burns/consumes/floods/etc everything behind you (think Amnesia... no, wait. I don't want to think about Amnesia /shudder)

- Puzzles! Not for everybody, I know, but I'm sure in one of those 5 mans there's a person that would love to figure out a puzzle. Make these CHANGE too, very important! It's too easy to memorize or look up a guide for a puzzle that never changes.

- Multiple paths/options for completion. As with the dynamic idea, an additional path or two would help alot to preserve the replayability and enjoyment of dungeons. CR "kind of" does this, unfortunately it's split into separate instances. Give us an option to choose which way we want to take once we enter the dungeon. Looking back at vanilla WoW dungeons like Blackrock Spire, Stratholme, and Blackrock Depths I believe they did that pretty well. Remember the Keys for Stratholme and Upper BRS? Those add some interesting little things that keep players involved - maybe add "keys" you create or find from other dungeons and quests, then they can be used to unlock an area of a different dungeon. The downside to this is the LFG system. In my opinion LFG really kills the experience of group dungeons, everyone wants to queue up for a <20 min faceroll to grab some extra marks. Or if you queue with some mad my-way-or-the-highway person who doesn't want to go the other path, then he quits. Or perhaps you're on the quest to assemble the key to the Temple of Doom and the speed runner achievement leaderboard guy gets mad because you're taking up his precious time and ruining his #1 spot on the speed clear board. For me, speed clearing by mashing AE at everything that moves is not my idea of engaging or interesting.

- Dungeons with story arcs. Break up a dungeon by creating a quest chain for it. For example the first part would be a quick run in, recon/kill guards. Next go in find the keys and get the attack plans. Now a larger part of the dungeon is opened by using the keys, so the next part you go in and kill the leader. The quest arc could have a set of static rewards - for example Marks/Plaques (100% to choose these) and a rotation of rare/epic items that have a chance to appear but are also on the same loot table as non-unique rare items (which you will always have a choice to pick 2-3 of these random items, but the unique items would be considerably rarer than the non-uniques)

- Multi tiered dungeons. Building on the idea of story arcs. This is done to some extent with a few of the expert dungeons by adding additional areas on to the original dungeon. What would make this even more interesting would be completing the dungeon's first "tier" at a lower level, then revisting it at different levels and seeing how your actions previously affected the layout and power center of the dungeon, along with exploring additional areas.

I love dungeon delving and exploration. However, Rift's dungeons are seriously lacking in that they are essentially a corridor run of AE spam to the next boss that *might* have a somewhat engaging combat mechanic. Better dungeon design that is more involved than a DPS race would be a huge improvement. Maybe then people wouldn't get so upset when the guy who queued as support isn't pulling 3k DPS, but he has the key to the cool part of the dungeon and can disable every trap along the way.

Also with Traps: this of course would require either a tradeskill or a soul that has access to trap disabling/detection. How about a tradeskill like a trapsmith that can pick locks, detect and disable traps, and even manufacture and deploy their own traps? That would be pretty fun."

[Synovia]

I would like to have a discussion about the combat in rift. Its not a QQ so please try to be constructive

Everytime i play rift for more then 3 hours,i get sleepy and have to take a break. In all the mmos i played (been doing that for 13 years now) , its the only one where this happen ... you know, getting bored. Ive played rift at launch up to GP release (got some server first in it) then came back at the launch of 1.8 (well a little bit before) end of 1.7

Dont misunderstand, i think rift is great and got the most "interesting" content to do but i cant help it, i cant play rift for too long before getting bored and have to take a break.

So it came to me while playing Guild Wars 2 and talking to my wife about it. Rift combat is clunky and dead. Ok lemme try to explain that.

Pay attention that english is not my mother tongue, im trying to express a feeling i got about the game, it may vary with others
--------------------------------------------------------------

Combat IS the game. If you remove fight, there is no rift. I cant help but feel in rift that the combat (as a warrior) is clunky. When i press the button, it doesnt feel smooth. Like if my character was delaying then deliver the skill in a fast manner then it stop again, the transition between attacks feel stiff. If you compare it to whatever other mmo (lets take wow or aion just as exemple). If you do an heroic strike, it goes out by itself at the next attack and it feel smooth or with aion, the responsivness of the attack is right on the spot. Like when i charge is where i hate my life or just after a riftwalk or trying to do the riftwalk. The clunkyness of it make me feel like not wanting to use these skills. It doesnt feel smooth, it feel hard, like it was not supposed to happen.

Second thing is, most of the stuff is tank and spank going from expert to just random stuff around, not talking about raid right now. I jump in a pull, do my threat, they die, move to the next and repeat for every dungeons. Nothing ever change, nothing is special. Like if you know the dungeon, well every pulls will be like that forever! There is no reaction or gotta move in all the trash and most of the bosses their mechanics can be ignored or are really weak. I really miss the old expert before i left, they were more challenging but still dead, tank and spank but mobs were hitting harder. Not saying that others mmo are doing it better (some are in my opinion) but i just feel so bored when going into an expert, no surprise, nothing to watch for, just steamrolling.

The game focuses too much on rotations then instinct. What i mean by that is, you use your skill in a certain order to maximise damage (which is logical) where as using your skill for a situation depending on what is happening. Like with my tank, i run toward the group, press my maccro, spread my dots , promise of steel then just 111,2,111,2,111,2,111,2,111,2. Every single pull is like that, monsters or bosses no difference, i do that and i win. I just feel like we should use, time the abilities and them being more mobile and/or objectives specific, you know, you do it for a goal other then damage.

So lets take AP for exemple. Every pull i do the same stuff up to the first boss. There i tank and spank until pillar, hide rinse and repeat. Go to falcon boss, tank and spank. Go to the next boss, do the same thing every pulls, no differences, no secrets. I tank and spank the blood boss, healer gotta dispel. Then i go to the next boss doing the same stuff. Tank and spank it. We go to the last boss, tank and spank it while someone dispel once in a while. There you go, if you do it again, you do the SAME EXACT stuff everytime.

It just feel like its too rotation centric. You do a boss mechanic then come back to your rotation. I dont feel like im in a fight, i feel like i play guitar hero sometime, doing a perfect on a tune if i hit my rotation flawlesly. Often its mostly, i stand in front of the mob and whack him until he die, nothing happen else then that for 90% of the mobs in this game

Another thing is most of the melee attacks are not flashy. I dont say that i need a nuclear explosion every time i hit but other then the riftblade, its hard to tell what the warrior is only by looking at him. Whatever spec i play, when i look at the scree i seem to do only the 2 same animations for hours and hours.

--------------------------------------------

When i talk about the combat i dont talk about the souls and the synergy, i really love the system but i think this is why the games are growing AWAY from the talent trees. Like WoW:MoP, D3, GW2 because they see the problems its give, you become static.

I dont have a particular suggestion ... i came here to see if some people had the feeling too or if people had great ideas. Perhaps smoothing the skill queuing would make it better? You know, if Rift could have lets say Tera kind of gameplay ... man i would be on Rift all day long!

Now i know it is a mmo, it is like that yadiyada, ive been around for quite a while and i tried most of the stuff that is out right now. Dont think i HATE rift, i love it and im here to give suggestion or gather ideas to make it even more awesome. Everything in rift i love except that part. I love doing rifts, ember isle is awesome, instant adventures etc. But the combat being the thing you do the most often is the point lacking in this game

Rift have so much potential and with the upcoming expension, im pumped! I would just like to be able to play it longer and not getting bored by repetitive/dead combat.

The OP echoes my sentiments about Rift combat. I made a post a while back regarding PvP in Rift and how it felt "unsynchronized" and that it wasn't "fluid" as compared to a game like WoW and this is exactly what I was getting at - it's just even more noticeable in PvP where things move significantly quicker than out in the open world.

[Ferrnitty]

IMHO the thing missing from rift is Crowd Control. You have melee classes with insane mobility and instant attacks and almost no way to restrict that movement. Now if you add to that the ability of certain builds within these classes that can yank a target to them or teleport directly to a target and the need for CC becomes alarmingly obvious. Without this you have all but demolished the effectiveness of ranged units.

Now a few months back some "Genius" gave everyone a free Breakfree ability and now the remaining cc that is already nothing more than delaying tactics has evaporated. This was not a smart move IMHO.

[Neebler]

Preface: I talk about pvp not pve!

I respectfully disagree.
This weekend was Port Scion bonus weekend. On friday night I unlocked my exp and leveled to 50. Saturday and Sunday I played for like 12hours. Only PS. The whole time. I did not get bored at all. The only time I felt I was missing action was when we got rolled.
A huge factor, imo, is that there is rarely a "draw". It is either 1000 to 200 win or loss. Similar to the twink fight pre 50. So when I see we zerg like the Zerg Hive I just grind elites in the church. I don't dare write in chat anything because I fear as a newb I get flamed.

Furthermore I have way too many shortcuts to use. I feel like a piano player. Not only do I have (rogue) a builder macro, two finishers, a self heal macro, a stealth, an emergency escape macro, a disrupt, CCs (stun, mez, disarm, slow), debuff remover, AoE builder, AoE finisher, channeled AoE, BD short duration buffs.
And I use all of them. Except the AoE builder and finisher. Those I used rarely.

What I agree is that the visuals could get an improvement. I don't see from the dozen skills that are in my builder macro which one I use. They look all identical. That is very sad, imo.

[aux]

The Global Cooldown is mostly to blame for the feel of the game. It's a massive 1.5 seconds for most classes which is very slow, and makes timing irrelevant. Plus there's the animations. Hitting something with a big hammer doesn't feel like hitting something with a big hammer. But again the GCD is at least partially responsible here. Every attack animation has to be exactly 1.5 seconds.

[thoroar]

What I agree is that the visuals could get an improvement. I don't see from the dozen skills that are in my builder macro which one I use. They look all identical. That is very sad, imo.

Why do warriors get corner beast?

[Ajax1114]

I can definitely understand the sentiment of Rift being repetitive. I'm not sure that other games do it too well themselves, but it is undeniably prevalent in every aspect of Rift.

The main selling point of Rift is the Rifts and that content itself is limited in how much it can change. Circumstances vary, but people are still funneled into doing repetitive tasks: Close X number of Rifts, or kill X number of invasions, to stop the forces of Y evil planar boss from overwhelming telara.

Go kill a raid boss, then kill it again and again, week after week, nothing has changed. Same with dungeons. Same with PvP, though to a lesser degree - enter map you've seen 100 times, kill players, heal players, die, respawn, have little power over the outcome, do it again. And most boss fights in this game are the exact same mechanics from 100% to 0% health, sometimes with a few very minor additions as the fight progresses.

That is why Akylios, before the more major nerfs, was easily the most entertaining and dynamic fight in this game. You were never doing the same thing for very long before another layer of complexity was added to the fight, and the environment changed with the progression of the fight a number of times. Although the fight in its current state still retains its lack of repetitiveness, the difficulty of numerous mechanics went down and so did their importance in making the fight interesting.

The Global Cooldown is mostly to blame for the feel of the game. It's a massive 1.5 seconds for most classes which is very slow, and makes timing irrelevant. Plus there's the animations. Hitting something with a big hammer doesn't feel like hitting something with a big hammer. But again the GCD is at least partially responsible here. Every attack animation has to be exactly 1.5 seconds.

This is definitely part of it. You can play a rogue and get a 1.0 GCD, but then you run into energy starvation issues, which can be just as frustrating as a 1.5 GCD in terms of combat speed.

[TheGrinnz]

Play a pyro based mage. 1 second GCD, and you have to use all of the buttons.

[Stick89]

TBH, and this is just my opinion, but I find Rifts combat far more engaging and better than GW2's combat. I played the GW2 beta for the second time this past weekend and I only last about a half hour before I had to stop and come back to Rift. It was incredibly boring to me, I'd just pres the 1 key once and it'd auto fire away and I'd pres 2-4 whenever their cooldowns were up and it was an appropriate time to do so. Everything just seems to move at a snails pace in GW2 and in Rift it seems much more lively with more options on how to take down stuff. Again all of this is just my opinion.

[jaal]

coming from playing other MMO's the 1.5 GCD did take a while to adjust to and i would like to see it shortened as well as make the moves so you cant just make 2 macro's to play your class well.

Im really looking forward to the Class Changes, im hoping trion will put more interesting and original moves in

[Alatarv]

I didn't find the GCD in Rift any different from the GCD in WoW. You have some things that are on the GCD and some things that are off it, and that's part of the strategy for writing macros...or planning your rotations...or whatever.

As for Rift responding sluggishly -- it sure as heck doesn't for ME. If it's an instant attack and either off the GCD or my GCD is done, I touch the key and BAM! It fires. Now, as others have pointed out, you can't interrupt your own animations/attacks and jump to something else instead.

You can, however, adjust how this works a bit. In Interface, under Options, in the Combat category, you can tweak the ability queue. Default is short, which means you have a brief time near the end of any GCD to queue up the next command that's on the GCD. I found that when I set it for None, I PERSONALLY hated it, but it did seem to me like I could then almost "interrupt myself." If the next command hadn't actually started to fire off yet, I could break into something different.

As I said, I hated this. But my experience with combat in MMOs started in DAoC, then WoW, and now Rift. All three of them "felt" the same to me in how things queue up. I've not played GW2 (played the original GW some but hated the pseudo-MMO).