5 soul limit

[TheGreatGoogly]

The only real life example i can think of where i would agree limits are a good thing is with parents raising their children. But in real life, your career, bussiness decisions, sports, romance, etc. etc. limits are not a good thing...freedom and flexibility are always better. Same for a game...freedom and flexibility are good things...limits are bad things

Actually no. Unlimited freedom is pure anarchy. Freedom and flexibility are indeed good things to a point. Eventually your idea of freedom and flexibility will clash with mine. Its why society has rules and government. Regulations and whatnot.

The people arguing in favor of 5 soul limits want freedom and flexibility too. Saying 5 souls is not a large amount of flexibility is dishonest. It would still allow for more customization and freedom than any game before. But it would have its limits.

The people who want all 8 souls with no restrictions are basically asking for class anarchy. It may sound appealing and fun on paper. But in practice it is going to blow up in Trions face.

[Mel2Mel]

For sure both EQ2 and WoW allow all of the changes you just listed...not sure if any other AAA. I dont see any reason not to allow it.

And your own arguement can be turned against you pretty easily. Your saying if the arguement for no limits to the soul system cant be applied to all situations with limits vs. no limits then its an invalid one then i assume you believe the reverse holds true about your arguements in favor of limits...

so do you also believe instead of 3 profressions we should only get 2?....no wait...how about just 1 profession each...cuz you know...limits are good right? and 50 levels...thats too many...not limiting enough - lets cap everyone at 10 levels...cuz limits are good right?...and lets limit everyone to just one character per server...thats way better cuz its more limiting...

The only real life example i can think of where i would agree limits are a good thing is with parents raising their children. But in real life, your career, bussiness decisions, sports, romance, etc. etc. limits are not a good thing...freedom and flexibility are always better. Same for a game...freedom and flexibility are good things...limits are bad things

Well this makes no sense, nobody is saying they shoudl restrict everything into a linear grind. But yea, you're right, there should be a limit on professions, 3 is fine. Yes, there should be a limit on levels, 50 is fine. Yes, there should be a limit on characters per server, 1 is a tad strict, but none the less, a limit need be in place, and what do you know! It is!

[Mel2Mel]

Actually no. Unlimited freedom is pure anarchy. Freedom and flexibility are indeed good things to a point. Eventually your idea of freedom and flexibility will clash with mine. Its why society has rules and government. Regulations and whatnot.

The people arguing in favor of 5 soul limits want freedom and flexibility too. Saying 5 souls is not a large amount of flexibility is dishonest. It would still allow for more customization and freedom than any game before. But it would have its limits.

The people who want all 8 souls with no restrictions are basically asking for class anarchy. It may sound appealing and fun on paper. But in practice it is going to blow up in Trions face.

TheGreatGoodgly has spoken! And he speaks the truth... Couldn't have said it better myself...

[JonathanM]

How dare you call me lazy just because I like the freedom and flexibility of the soul system and their current intent to allow access to all the souls. Who the hell are you to decide that anyone that doesn't agree with the limits you think should be in the game must be a lazy player who will ruin the game. And if you want it to be 5 souls does that mean the guys who think it should be limited to 3 should call you lazy?

having a difference of opinion is one thing. Claiming that anyone that doesn't agree with you must be a bad player that tends to the ruin the game is taking it to a whole different level.

I highly recommend you work on that selective reading problem....

Take the entire context of the post and apply it to the general line you are quoting.

If you wish to go study game design and even how the mind works (behavioral science), you may find out that wanting all without limitations and or design principles behind them is typically a bad thing.

Hey I want all the free government benefits and no taxes.... I wonder how that will help the system, especially if everyone started thinking and doing that.... My point still remains. Feel free to disagree, but use the actual content of my post rather than a generalized punch line you didnt seem to get.

[Sardoni]

The objective is to roll a core class (cleric/rogue/mage/warrior) and have access to all depth of that class so if you get bored playing your warrior as a tank instead of losing your subscription you can just change to a dps warrior.

Limitations on the soul system would hinder the freedoms they've been openly advertising. It would also niche people into pigeon holes instead of giving them the freedom to adapt into a situation.

Warrior getting faceplanted by some mage/cleric combos? Let me just change to my voidknight role that I rarely use.... nuisances removed... back to my other soul role I enjoy playing.

Or you could just have that player rage quit... or just refuse to adapt and keep getting his face handed to him...

[Mel2Mel]

The objective is to roll a core class (cleric/rogue/mage/warrior) and have access to all depth of that class so if you get bored playing your warrior as a tank instead of losing your subscription you can just change to a dps warrior.

Limitations on the soul system would hinder the freedoms they've been openly advertising. It would also niche people into pigeon holes instead of giving them the freedom to adapt into a situation.

Warrior getting faceplanted by some mage/cleric combos? Let me just change to my voidknight role that I rarely use.... nuisances removed... back to my other soul role I enjoy playing.

Or you could just have that player rage quit... or just refuse to adapt and keep getting his face handed to him...

Ok, but in Beta 1 I did this without a problem, despite a 3 soul limit. There is plenty of room with just 3 or 4 souls, to switch from Tank to Heals to DPS to support. You don't need all 8 souls to have options... And to me that is the beauty of the system before the limit was removed. You had plenty of option, but still kept a strong sense of individuality...

[Kedwyn]

The people who want all 8 souls with no restrictions are basically asking for class anarchy. It may sound appealing and fun on paper. But in practice it is going to blow up in Trions face.

No we are not and no it wont. How do you know 5 is the magic number but your so certain 8 is a disaster? The fact is you cant know that because no previous game has had a system like this so its uncharted territory. To ask the devs to deliberately limit the biggest thing that will make this game unique just amounts to you saying you want the game to be more like previous mmo's then to try something new. And yet in every other aspect where Rift is similar to other MMO's people jump on it for not being more unique.

And to be clear...we aren't asking it to be 8...we are asking it to be ALL of the souls that an archtype has...which means if they add more we want access to those too. When they release their first xpac i bet they add one soul per archtype (why not) and I would hope we gain access to that.

I love that I can invest 2 years into my character and if I am bored of healing I can give tanking a try for 6 months and not be forced to create a totally new character that I dont identify with and that no one else in the game as a relationship with...and then start yet another new character 6 months later when I want something new again.

The freedom and flexibility of the soul system allows us to identify with our mains more (because we wont be forced to play other toons as often unless we truly like doing that), to switch out our primary playstyle every 6months to keep the game fresh and fun without having to ditch our main character, I'll have stronger relationships with other players in the game because they and I will be on our mains more often and i can play with my friends more often rather then strangers because i wont be forced to exclude them because they are the 'wrong' class

[JonathanM]

TheGreatGoodgly has spoken! And he speaks the truth... Couldn't have said it better myself...

Exactly. All we are asking for is balance!

That area thats "just right".

[TheGreatGoogly]

I have few issues with people being allowed to get access to all 8 souls.

I have a problem with people being allowed to get all 8 souls and OWN them all at once.

Thats where the problem lies.

[Kedwyn]

I highly recommend you work on that selective reading problem....

Take the entire context of the post and apply it to the general line you are quoting.

If you wish to go study game design and even how the mind works (behavioral science), you may find out that wanting all without limitations and or design principles behind them is typically a bad thing.

Hey I want all the free government benefits and no taxes.... I wonder how that will help the system, especially if everyone started thinking and doing that.... My point still remains. Feel free to disagree, but use the actual content of my post rather than a generalized punch line you didnt seem to get.

Ok - put it in the proper context for me then. Who were you calling lazy and game ruining players then? the guys who want only 3 souls, the ones you want 5 or the ones who want 8? or were you going off on a tangent and speaking about an entirely different group of players. As far as I can tell there are only 3 camps of thought represented in this thread and your clearly calling out some group of players as 'bad for the game'...which was it then?


As to game design and behavioral science...within the gaming industry alone almost every 'iconic' game that defines a genre broke previously established limits

FPS's broke down the limits of playing in 2 dimensions
RTS's broken down the limits of playing strategy games in turns
GTA pioneered the sandbox game (i.e. very few limits on what you can do and where you can go within the game)
MMO's themselves broken down the limits of playing games by yourself...or having a game live on even when your not playing it...
The Wii controller and now the Kinect broken down the limits of playing with a game controller
Ventrillo broke down the limit of not being able to hear each others voices

etc.

No I'm not argueing for anarchy. But limits and boundaries are meant to be pushed and meant to be torn down. And within the gaming industry the games that successfull do that and truly give you something new often suceed

[Battalion03]

wow get butt hurt why don't you sorry i don't think like you sorry i disagree with you ,if you notice in the US we have the right to speak out our minds and i don't see in my post where i said "battalion03" will make me do anything specifically and further more, anyone claiming less is better then yes you are by saying no no no your to stupid to have this many choices here lets take some away since no one will have a re roll to play with noobs, since we all know its the starter zones that ppl play games for


i hated having to "re-roll" or make a alt just to have it as a back up .1 main 8 alts come on i left wow for that crap, if i can be one toon with more choices then it opens up more choices for groups for raids for pvp for everything the min maxers heh what ever i never did the min max thing and you know what i kicked their bootys why i built my char to my play style not what some post on a forum said, give a man a nuclear weapon but dont teach him how to use it what good is it then?

HA ha no not butt hurt just want to know how much power i haove over people.

[Sardoni]

Ok, but in Beta 1 I did this without a problem, despite a 3 soul limit. There is plenty of room with just 3 or 4 souls, to switch from Tank to Heals to DPS to support. You don't need all 8 souls to have options... And to me that is the beauty of the system before the limit was removed. You had plenty of option, but still kept a strong sense of individuality...

But you had very little freedom.

Cleric started out as a Shaman/Inquis/Sentinel. That's a niche. Stuck with a soul. What if I felt like being a Warden/Purifier/Druid? I have to wait until the storyline progression rewards me with the ability to get rid of this one soul I have no desire to play? Or even a Justicar/Druid/Warden.... Transition this to every other core class.

The problem in beta 1 is you had clerics that legitimately wanted to heal but picked up Inquis/Cabalist for their first two souls. Hit 20 on the massive invasion forces we had... spammed general for "What's the quest for my third soul" and left disappointed because the rift progression shifted them away from a linear progression to gain that third soul.

The soul preview system helps IMMENSELY with people making wise decisions. I approve of leaving the start zone with 3 souls to choose from, but if you're going to tell me I can only look forward to aquiring two more total souls on my journey to level 50 and I pick up 2 that I don't like and don't use... how does that enable me to take advantage of the multiple roles I have. (You get 4 roles of 3 soul combinations... eventually). 5 souls doesn't give you much variety for 4 specs.

The thing that appeals to me most about this game is that I can see that the enemy players is a cleric/rogue/warrior/mage. But I don't know what flavor. Once we engage I learn what they currently are. After my death or theirs they could shift to a different role.

In open PVP I could have 10+ different style fights against a group of 5 players who switch up their roles. That means a fight is never the same.

If I know Bob because he's always in game. I know the 5 souls that bob has. I know what Bob is willing to do. I know what Bob can't do because he doesn't have those other 3 souls... he gets a disadvantage... he gets niched... he gets outclassed.

People are just creatures of habit not creatures of change. Having to adapt terrifies people because they have no comfort zone. Frankly, I find the concept to be amazing. Never truly knowing what my enemy is going to do and not really know if I'm even spec'd right to handle it during the initial encounter.

The most successful PVP guilds are going to be the ones that adapt. They're going to be the ones that switch up tactics and bounces roles off people. If I have player A that's my archon mage he's just become my raid's anchor. We wipe you twice. You learn... take out Player A. You take out player A and wipe us. I switch Player A to a different flavor mage and ask one of my other mages to take on the archon role... moving my anchor... confusing you... outlasting you because people get frustrated.

I prefer people having full access to the tools to be successful. If you give me only 5 souls and I realize... man I need that other soul and I don't want to give up the way I'm playing now... I have to roll a different toon and regear it... bleh... that's for those other MMOs. This is why I'm following Rift.

[TheGreatGoogly]

No we are not and no it wont. How do you know 5 is the magic number but your so certain 8 is a disaster? The fact is you cant know that because no previous game has had a system like this so its uncharted territory. To ask the devs to deliberately limit the biggest thing that will make this game unique just amounts to you saying you want the game to be more like previous mmo's then to try something new. And yet in every other aspect where Rift is similar to other MMO's people jump on it for not being more unique.

And to be clear...we aren't asking it to be 8...we are asking it to be ALL of the souls that an archtype has...which means if they add more we want access to those too. When they release their first xpac i bet they add one soul per archtype (why not) and I would hope we gain access to that.

I love that I can invest 2 years into my character and if I am bored of healing I can give tanking a try for 6 months and not be forced to create a totally new character that I dont identify with and that no one else in the game as a relationship with...and then start yet another new character 6 months later when I want something new again.

The freedom and flexibility of the soul system allows us to identify with our mains more (because we wont be forced to play other toons as often unless we truly like doing that), to switch out our primary playstyle every 6months to keep the game fresh and fun without having to ditch our main character, I'll have stronger relationships with other players in the game because they and I will be on our mains more often and i can play with my friends more often rather then strangers because i wont be forced to exclude them because they are the 'wrong' class

Almost everything you just said was pure opinion based off a mentality that wishes to "have its cake and eat it to."

And apparently 8 souls isnt enough for you now and the game hasnt even launched. You already want more MORE MORE!

[Eevilways]

Ok, but in Beta 1 I did this without a problem, despite a 3 soul limit. There is plenty of room with just 3 or 4 souls, to switch from Tank to Heals to DPS to support. You don't need all 8 souls to have options... And to me that is the beauty of the system before the limit was removed. You had plenty of option, but still kept a strong sense of individuality...

In beta 3 I had a warrior. I did a Paragon, Riftblade, Beastmaster for a dps role. I also had a Paladin, Void Knight, Warlod for a tank build. So limiting me to 5 souls in that case wouldnt've allowed me to have the builds for the 2 roles that I wanted. What having 5 soul limitation would do is force me to either use a tanking soul in my dps spec or vice versa. Sure I could put warlord into my DPS build, but then I lose out on a pet for solo purposes or I get into a group that has someone that has their warlord worked up a bit so that soul is entirely worthless in the group.

[Sardoni]

I have few issues with people being allowed to get access to all 8 souls.

I have a problem with people being allowed to get all 8 souls and OWN them all at once.

Thats where the problem lies.

That was for testing and because those of us that hit 20 in Beta 1 and 2 didn't get to choose. We were niched.