5 soul limit

[ronmaru]

Five souls is more limiting than it sounds considering that some souls are more "specialized" within a given archtype. It will make people feel pressured to make damn sure they have those. AKA many mages will feel strong pressure to pick up chloro, dominator, and archon so that they can fill those specialty roles if they find they need to, this will only give them two souls to pick from.

That and by limiting souls people will be more keen on picking the "right" souls and having cookie cutter builds because they will worry about eternally shafting themselves on the "wrong" soul that ends up being gimped at some aspect of the game. This will directly discourage experimentation and exploration of the various souls available and hurt diversity, not help it. You will get everyone loading the exact same souls so that they are "safe".

And then of course if souls get rebalanced nerfed/buffed someone might find their character's playstyle broken with no recourse because they've already picked their souls etc. Now they must re-roll an alt, not because they wanted to but because they were compelled to in order to feel viable.

An open system encourages experimentation and diversity and allows people to try to find a mix that works right for themselves without fear that they will screw themselves over if their typical build just doesn't work in particular environments.

Will there be "standard" min/max builds that many people will copy? Sure...but limiting souls will only ensure that nearly everyone will use those builds 24/7 because their soul choices are locked vs. branching out much of the time.

There is absolutly nothing stopping someone from making a ton of alts if they really want to level up another character using differnt builds, so that argument is utterly pointless. People who want to roll a ton of alts can do so, people who don't feel like it won't have to as much as they would in most other games. That's a win win situation, period.

Personally the idea of a game that allows me to focus more on a few characters sounds fantastic.

The argument of having access to more diversity somehow mystically making the game easier is just silly. The difficulty of content is what it is. Letting people play a game in a manner that is the most fun for them has jack-all to do with it. There are a couple of threads now with people saying "you just want to be able to do everything!"

This is silly, in every MMO, everyone already can do everything (skill of themselves and/or their friends limiting of course). Its a matter of how much time they want to put into it in most cases. Everyone already has access to all end game content if they choose to pursue it. Everyone already can play any character they want. Trion is simply trying to eliminate tedium and situations that cause people to feel compelled to grind over and over. Grinding for most people isn't fun, sure we did it back in the day when there wasn't anything else out there, but even then pretty much everyone throught that the time spent to camp the ancient cyclops was rediculous.

Most people play games to have fun. Having fun doesn't mean someone isn't dedicated, it doesn't make them a less skilled player, and it certainly doesn't mean they don't love and thrive on challenge. What it means is most people recognize that grinding is boring and will avoid it if they can because being bored defeats the whole damn purpose of a given hobby.

[Khierra]

What you get from a creation standpoint is not 4 classes, not 32 classes, but almost endless possibilities on what "class" you actually are. It's the first MMO I've played short of D&D with multi-classing that pretty much lets you create your own unique class. But even in D&D it has more specifics than Rift has.

DDO (Dungeon and Dragons Online) is a PERFECT example of a very fun and nice class system! Endless of combinations and every decision made during the character creation was important., actually I have been playing it for 1,5 year now and that is after completed every content available since about 7 months (of course small expansions are released and that content has been cleared once released).

The game itself is pretty ok, but the raiding isn't really that fun imo since I think it's a bit to short and unattractive. A raid should be more epic.

The quests have more depth then normal MMO's but I am not really that fond of the system that only gives xp for a completed quest and not for anything you kill which can sometimes make you to skip as many mobs as possible to shorten the time to do the quest which is the best xp per minute.

So why do I still play the game?? Easy! There are so many oppoturnities to build a character (yes you can gimp yourself for sure). This is also a learning... you learn by mistakes. Since you can do mistakes you are a careful when planning your character OR you choose the preset 4 paths of each archetype (preset path are pure class builds that have been done by the develepers that will be overall good, even if not optimal). If I only had the time then I have at least 8 more characters that I would like to test out So people have most often several characters and you ALWAYS have people to group with even in the newbie zones (even more there since people love to test new builds).

So to me having only four builds (yes, I don't care if you can have 4 roles and different combinations. Since you still have the choice of making whatever build you want without any penalties beside the unimportant money factor) really brings down this game to a level where it could have been so much better.

So to me Rift is superior in many ways (yes the quests can be enhanced), and I really hope they will do something about this..

The more I have been thinking the more I can see different approaches to have you character more unique.

YES, I can actually give and take instead of some imo childish manner say I will not take any steps away from my initial though about how I want this (how many negotiations would be solved if people behave like this???)

Alternative suggestion:

Let people have 8 souls, yay to you all!... BUT implement a side system that lets you customize you character more to be able to be more unique.

For example one such system might be that you get points to spend on the abilities you have to make them increase in rank. For example lets say I play the mage calling.. I have access to all the souls, but I see myself mainly as a DPS, but enjoy the possibility of being able to go CC or Support occationally. Now I get some points that is earned during my leveling that I can spend (let's call them AP's (Achievement Points). These points can enhance a ability to become higher rank then it normally would. However these AP's are not that many and this means that you can only select a few abilities to increase. NOW we have diversity since this means you have to make a choice.. What role will I play the mostly.. in my example I wanted to play the DPS mainly and some CC and some Support. So most of my points I use to enhance some abilities on my DPS souls and then a few points goes to some select abilties in my CC and Support souls.

This makes people a bit more specialized into something and gives the people the choice they asking for to be able to fill every role within their calling, yet it also allows for some uniqueness and not every character will be the same EVEN if they have the same souls.

/Khierra

[grinningsphinx69]

seriosly....the games been developed and balanced so you have access to every subclass...do you really think they will reengineer everything at this point"?


What is up with people wanting a gimped system???????

[Corwynn_Maelstrom]

DDO (Dungeon and Dragons Online) is a PERFECT example of a very fun and nice class system! Endless of combinations and every decision made during the character creation was important., actually I have been playing it for 1,5 year now and that is after completed every content available since about 7 months (of course small expansions are released and that content has been cleared once released).

So go play DDO? I have. It was fun.

Of course, it was DDO.

This is Rift. So maybe Rift should just be Rift, while DDO is just DDO?

[Khierra]

This is silly, in every MMO, everyone already can do everything (skill of themselves and/or their friends limiting of course). Its a matter of how much time they want to put into it in most cases. Everyone already has access to all end game content if they choose to pursue it. Everyone already can play any character they want. Trion is simply trying to eliminate tedium and situations that cause people to feel compelled to grind over and over. Grinding for most people isn't fun, sure we did it back in the day when there wasn't anything else out there, but even then pretty much everyone throught that the time spent to camp the ancient cyclops was rediculous.

Most people play games to have fun. Having fun doesn't mean someone isn't dedicated, it doesn't make them a less skilled player, and it certainly doesn't mean they don't love and thrive on challenge. What it means is most people recognize that grinding is boring and will avoid it if they can because being bored defeats the whole damn purpose of a given hobby.

You are correct sir, however... ;)

If you play let's say yatzy then most people will find it very entertaining the first times. But quickly you learn now the games work and it's getting repeating. Same thing every time.. I cannot throw my dices in any other order then my 3 throws I have. So this makes me bored after just a little.

It's the same issue here... once I have my four characters of each calling then what should I do? It makes a HUGE pressure on Trion to release content so you keep people hooked to the game. Since you have no options to try another character and test a new playstyle, since you can basically shift playstyle with a few button clicks and then test it a (which should take less then an hour compared to several weeks).

The learning curve with the current system is much less then if you have a limit on the souls. This makes me keep the interest much less time then it would with a limited soul system.

So just as you said getting bored defeats the whole damn purpose of the given hobby. If the content isn't updated at a very high speed then having only 4 classes (since every calling can do every role within it's class) will make that borded MUCH closer since there are no incentives to roll another character within the same class.

Also I should say I am NOT a hardcore player.. I can play ever tuesday evening and every second sunday. So I don't think I can be called a hardcore player, even if I am very focused and plays alot on those day I am able to play.

** Edit.. I do though think that the other suggestion in red text earlier is a very good suggestion to keep both camps happy **

[Khierra]

So go play DDO? I have. It was fun.

Of course, it was DDO.

This is Rift. So maybe Rift should just be Rift, while DDO is just DDO?

Mature answer??

I was explaining the GOOD things with that game. As well as discussing what could be improved to this game. I also gave suggestion which you appearantly didn't read at all.

/Khierra

[Corwynn_Maelstrom]

Mature answer??

Yes, it is mature to suggest to another adult that perhaps if they are enjoying a specific game they should play that specific game and not attempt to have core systems changed in a new game to suit their tastes.

I was explaining the GOOD things with that game. As well as discussing what could be improved to this game. I also gave suggestion which you appearantly didn't read at all.

There is no good suggestion when talking about the soul system aside from leaving it as designed.

[Khierra]

seriosly....the games been developed and balanced so you have access to every subclass...do you really think they will reengineer everything at this point"?


What is up with people wanting a gimped system???????

Nothing to reengineer... just one rather simple thing to implement. The system is already there. You just have to add a few more ranks to the abilities that are able to be picked with the AP's (Achievement Points).

Regarding the balance... nope it's not balanced yet, we are in beta. Secondly.. most often games are not balanced even after the release. Third balance is an ongoing process and not a one time thing.

Also not a gimped system... You get what you want.. you can fill all your roles just like you want. Only thing is that there are also some possibilities to create an unique character. So why complaining?

/Khierra

[dinhosaur]

Yes, it is mature to suggest to another adult that perhaps if they are enjoying a specific game they should play that specific game and not attempt to have core systems changed in a new game to suit their tastes.



There is no good suggestion when talking about the soul system aside from leaving it as designed.

This is such an absurd post.

Trion has clearly shown they are open to feedback and suggestions, they don't just stick with flaws and go "well go play another game if you don't like it"

Everything is subject to change in games. Especially before they launch.

I may not agree with people but at least I don't use the weak cop out "if you don't like it don't play".

One thing i've noticed is that the people who use that cop out, tend to only use it on features they like. Yet when they encounter a feature they don't like they complain about it and try to get it changed.

[Corwynn_Maelstrom]

This is such an absurd post.

I was wondering when you'd show up. Welcome.

Trion has clearly shown they are open to feedback and suggestions, they don't just stick with flaws and go "well go play another game if you don't like it"

Yes, they have absolutely shown that they are open to suggestions. They have also shown that they have designed the game in a certain way for specific reasons. Certain elements of the game are more or less here to stay.

Everything is subject to change in games. Especially before they launch.

Many things are. Some are not. Silverwood will not likely become Goldenwood. The soul system will not be replaced by the DDO class system.

I may not agree with people but at least I don't use the weak cop out "if you don't like it don't play".

If you enjoy the features of a game I would encourage you to play it. I certainly play games which I find fun. I'm not going to suggest that we start putting mechanics from "Portal" in Rift, however.

One thing i've noticed is that the people who use that cop out, tend to only use it on features they like. Yet when they encounter a feature they don't like they complain about it and try to get it changed.

Find me some core system quotes from moi please. I'd love to see what precisely you come up with. Me saying something like "I would prefer a system with a short refresh timer and individual cooldowns, but I understand that the GCD isn't going anywhere?"

[Corwynn_Maelstrom]

Also not a gimped system... You get what you want.. you can fill all your roles just like you want. Only thing is that there are also some possibilities to create an unique character. So why complaining?

If you're not attempting to reduce the number of souls available why don't you create a thread with ideas for your customization system?

Other games have called these systems AA or RP. They're not related to the topic at hand, and could be taken at face value f it were not for the specific topic of this thread.

[ronmaru]

It's the same issue here... once I have my four characters of each calling then what should I do? It makes a HUGE pressure on Trion to release content so you keep people hooked to the game. Since you have no options to try another character and test a new playstyle, since you can basically shift playstyle with a few button clicks and then test it a (which should take less then an hour compared to several weeks).

There are two factions, that makes 8 chars if you want to hit up everything from all angles. Additionally you can choose to level up more than one character of a given calling/archtype and play through the game with severely different builds consistantly which will effectively mimic what you are desiring. Shifting roles here and there or at end game is a big difference from playing through the whole game in primarily in a particular soul build/orientation. I would argue that if that isn't good enough to keep someone interested then locking down souls to force them to do the same thing won't be good enough either.

Ultimately I feel its safe to say Trion will eternally be under huge pressure to release content to keep subs up and running no matter what. A lot of people that focus on end game have two or three characters top that they are primarily playing and trying to get every last scrap of top level gear for. Making a lot of alts won't help them stay interested longer on the whole. What really makes playing an alt exciting (for me personally and most people I know) is hitting content you missed the first time through because there was simply too much or playing a drastically different role through the game and experiencing the combat from a different perspective. Either way, opening up souls doesn't negatively effec this and you still want more content to help justify it.

Don't get me wrong, I understand where you are coming from, I also know people who love rolling a million alts and playing through each and every class to experience things from that perspective, but I do not see how keeping the soul system open would prevent you from doing just that. Playing through the game primarily as a riftstalker/bard/assasin would be a vastly different experience than a ranger/marksman/sabatour, just because you CAN access all the souls doesn't mean you can use them all at the same time, I find myself playing "most of the time" in a given setup. Sure I can switch if I really really have to, but for the most part I'm playing in one given build for quite a few reasons. If I had a friend join and wanted to roll a new char to play with them its highly likely that I would change things up and primarily play a completely different build/soulset to play with them and get used to that instead for the same reasons you are suggesting.

Also I should say I am NOT a hardcore player.. I can play ever tuesday evening and every second sunday. So I don't think I can be called a hardcore player, even if I am very focused and plays alot on those day I am able to play.

Which begs the question...if they release content regularly and you participate in any end game content, just how fast will you be able to burn through alts? I honestly have no clue but I want to think it will take a bit wich may make this all a moot point for you personally?

** Edit.. I do though think that the other suggestion in red text earlier is a very good suggestion to keep both camps happy **

I agree. I very much like the idea of having some degree of character customization beyond souls that is unique to the character. The only problem I see with stat customization specifically is that each archtype is HEAVILY weighted towards a single primary stat, clerics get a much larger boost from wis than mages do, mages get a much larger boost from int than clerics do etc. Thus if you could put points into stats to customize nearly everyone would dump all spare points into the archtype's primary stat short of whatever they would need in endurance for tankins assuming they planned to tank (though I suspect many would just enchant and gear for more endurance and still customize towards their primary stat regardless).

To make it more viable the impact of stats on an archtype would have to be more balanced vs. the over-the-top weighting it has currently. Maybe make spell power 60/40 wis/int for a cleric etc. which would make customization a little bit more of an actual decision vs. a no brainer?

That said I still like the idea of having some form of alternate customization. Perhaps an AA tree? (in this case Advanced Archtype tree instead of Alternate Advancement). Arguably stat boosts could be made part of it along with a couple extra perks and tricks that could be selected and did not change when shifting into different soul specs as they would represent your character's physical development and orientation, not their soul orientation.

This would absolutely have to be toned down enough though so that it didn't eclipse soul builds. AKA regardless of what your AA was setup for you could relaibly tank/heal/dps/support if your souls were setup right for it and you had the gear and skill. But an AA build could give you an edge towards your preferred inclination.

The downside of course is that its going to be difficult enough to balance 32 souls, further customization will make it even more difficult. I still like the idea.

[Nexai]

Yes lets let everyone do everything ...that make for a great game. There was a group of clerics that ran IT today.....although it does seem interesting whats the point. Hell if i could find 4 other good clerics why would i need any other calling?
They had a tank cleric and range dps cleric and a melee dps cleric and 2 ranged/heal hybrids. LOL one calling did it all ...compete with? serisouly? That all the roles filled by one calling. you cant compete any harder then that. Now it may not be like that endgame but really ...i can see it happening at 50 as well.

5 clerics trying to do a instance at level 30+ lol would love to see that happen but it won't this is the lower level of the game mobs aren't hitting like trucks yet so to make that assumption is really dumb on your part... and considering they all had heals they had 5x the heals to heal through the lack of taunts so yeah i can see how they were able to do it... but like i said this is the low level end of the game

[Khierra]

I agree. I very much like the idea of having some degree of character customization beyond souls that is unique to the character. The only problem I see with stat customization specifically is that each archtype is HEAVILY weighted towards a single primary stat, clerics get a much larger boost from wis than mages do, mages get a much larger boost from int than clerics do etc. Thus if you could put points into stats to customize nearly everyone would dump all spare points into the archtype's primary stat short of whatever they would need in endurance for tankins assuming they planned to tank (though I suspect many would just enchant and gear for more endurance and still customize towards their primary stat regardless).

To make it more viable the impact of stats on an archtype would have to be more balanced vs. the over-the-top weighting it has currently. Maybe make spell power 60/40 wis/int for a cleric etc. which would make customization a little bit more of an actual decision vs. a no brainer?

That said I still like the idea of having some form of alternate customization. Perhaps an AA tree? (in this case Advanced Archtype tree instead of Alternate Advancement). Arguably stat boosts could be made part of it along with a couple extra perks and tricks that could be selected and did not change when shifting into different soul specs as they would represent your character's physical development and orientation, not their soul orientation.

This would absolutely have to be toned down enough though so that it didn't eclipse soul builds. AKA regardless of what your AA was setup for you could relaibly tank/heal/dps/support if your souls were setup right for it and you had the gear and skill. But an AA build could give you an edge towards your preferred inclination.

The downside of course is that its going to be difficult enough to balance 32 souls, further customization will make it even more difficult. I still like the idea.

Thanks for the feedback...

Just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean increasing the stat points. We already have that with items, planar essences etc. I mean that you can add a rank to an existing ability.. ie if you have the ranger 0 root tree ability: Call lesser Razorbeast then by adding the AP (or AA or what you prefer to call them) then you can have rank 6 instead of rank 5 of that ability. So basically it adds some extra flavour to some few select abilities which makes it possible to customize your character more and make it more unique.

/Khierra

[ronmaru]

Thanks for the feedback...

Just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean increasing the stat points. We already have that with items, planar essences etc. I mean that you can add a rank to an existing ability.. ie if you have the ranger 0 root tree ability: Call lesser Razorbeast then by adding the AP (or AA or what you prefer to call them) then you can have rank 6 instead of rank 5 of that ability. So basically it adds some extra flavour to some few select abilities which makes it possible to customize your character more and make it more unique.

/Khierra

Ahhh so basically "slightly deep specialization" into your preferred/main build abilities/bonuses? That's not a bad notion. It would still have to be kept tame enough to not be required to perform at end game, but in general its a good idea and would probably be easier to balance than most of the things I can think of. ;)