[DEVELOPERS] Is there an attempt to reduce, or get rid of the RANGING CATTLE type mob

[Kendricke]

There are really two discussions taking place here: One involving population and another involving AI.

The discussions revolving around population seem to take umbrage at the idea of a living landscape, presumably because in the real world you rarely come across large fields of animals just meandering about. Much of the real world feels largely empty, so why should a game world feel so empty, right?

Well, in the real world I also have to relieve my bladder a few times a day, require a specific amount of sleep, and I have to pay taxes to the local (and distant) governments. I age. I eventually die. When I die, I do not get the option to revive and start fresh. The point is that gameplay should win out over realism when all other things are equal (and really, they rarely are at that).

Create a game world with large expanses of nothing and players feel that the world is empty and "dead". Forums fill with complaints about this. Other players simply stop logging in or paying monthly subcriptions. Though a certain percentage of players will always prefer more of a simulation feel, the vast majority of players will want a game that feels vibrant and overcrowded.

Even away from the look and feel arguments, there is something to be said about providing enough targets to go around, too. After all, if a quest requires killing 10 rats, there better be enough rats around for multiple players to get their fill of rodents or you'll create friction and eventually customer service calls/petitions (which costs $$$). If the design calls for creating friction between players, that's a horse of a completely different color, however.

The second discussion is a completely different one from the first (though not mutually exclusive to the first). Players tend to want better AI all the time. Frankly, so do developers. Good AI is one of the holy grails of gaming. Most people never really notice good AI, but they sure do notice bad AI.

You can get around some AI issues through pre-scripted encounters. A significant number of players seem to really enjoy scripted encounters (I do). Oddly enough, this may be one of those "careful what you wish for" scenarios, because Everquest II tried this with the Shadow Odyssey expansion and it resulted in huge forum threads complaining about how difficult the new scripted dungeons were. Even if the scripts were explained to these players, they just couldn't figure them out - or maybe they didn't want to have to. Some players simply want to log in with a couple of friends here and there and just bash away on monsters for a while.

I'd love to see more realistic AI in Rift. I think there's a lot to go on there. However, I don't think ALL encounters should have top end AI or scripting. There has to be a balance there unless Trion is going for a small hardcore niche audience only with Rift (which I don't think is the case at all).

I think it's perfectly appropriate to have large herds of dumb cows roaming more open, accessible areas that typical players can just bash away at, while at the same time utilizing more advancing detection/social AI for dungeons/castles/outposts/villages/etc.

[Fozzik]

A group of five wandering orcs. 1) If you shoot the one in the back of the group and he is far enough away from his buddies he comes alone. ...etc...

Very cool ideas...I whole-heartedly agree. I'd love to see any or all of that. I think that better mob AI and zone population based on something other than a grid are some of those BIG things that would really pay off if devs spent the time on it. Don't try to design how players will play so much of the time...just design a world and let players figure out how to live in it.

[Nethrick]

I don't know, I like diversity. After playing DAoC for 5 years, and getting my 7th level 80 in WoW.. I like the ability to choose between grinding mobs for experience or doing quests/events. I wouldn't mind seeing a little of both in Telara personally. I like the idea of smarter AI, but there's only so much the Dev's can do. If they make the mobs too smart or make them too organized, less experienced gamers might get overwhelmed.

My wife and I played WAR and I liked the public quest encounters they had available in most zones (which sounds a lot like Rift's plan). One thing that sucked about it sometimes is that if you're there by yourself, the events could be impossible to do by yourself (especially if you were a level or two lower than the "recommended"). I really liked the overall feel of the events though, and I liked the reward system WAR had, so hopefully Trion learns from it.

[Visions]

I don't know, I like diversity. After playing DAoC for 5 years, and getting my 7th level 80 in WoW.. I like the ability to choose between grinding mobs for experience or doing quests/events. I wouldn't mind seeing a little of both in Telara personally. I like the idea of smarter AI, but there's only so much the Dev's can do. If they make the mobs too smart or make them too organized, less experienced gamers might get overwhelmed.

My wife and I played WAR and I liked the public quest encounters they had available in most zones (which sounds a lot like Rift's plan). One thing that sucked about it sometimes is that if you're there by yourself, the events could be impossible to do by yourself (especially if you were a level or two lower than the "recommended"). I really liked the overall feel of the events though, and I liked the reward system WAR had, so hopefully Trion learns from it.

I'm not saying completely get rid of the grind, but have more dynamic, and well thought out grind. Walking into a field and pulling, killing, pulling, killing is just boring, and not fun. I've done it in EQ1, DAoC, EQ2, beta Fallen Earth and Aion. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say as a gamer, I need something new, something better. Dungeons of Dragons Online was able to provide this new experience, it just did not have enough content.

[Fozzik]

I don't know, I like diversity. After playing DAoC for 5 years, and getting my 7th level 80 in WoW.. I like the ability to choose between grinding mobs for experience or doing quests/events. I wouldn't mind seeing a little of both in Telara personally. I like the idea of smarter AI, but there's only so much the Dev's can do. If they make the mobs too smart or make them too organized, less experienced gamers might get overwhelmed.

And God forbid new players had to spend some time getting good at the game...

What's wrong with getting overwhelmed as a new player? I honestly miss the danger and the chance to actually differentiate myself by overcoming long odds. The learning curves in modern MMOs are perfectly flat horizontal lines, and all it does is make for a boring, unsatisfying and short-term experience. I want to feel some shock and awe and frustration so the victory is that much sweeter.

[Visions]

And God forbid new players had to spend some time getting good at the game...

What's wrong with getting overwhelmed as a new player? I honestly miss the danger and the chance to actually differentiate myself by overcoming long odds. The learning curves in modern MMOs are perfectly flat horizontal lines, and all it does is make for a boring, unsatisfying and short-term experience. I want to feel some shock and awe and frustration so the victory is that much sweeter.

No doubt. I am tired of games that are so boring I just walk away, or put my 6 year old at the computer and say, hit those four keys, or click those four buttons when you fight any of those mobs you see in front of you. She finds it fun, but I've been there, done it, don't care to do the same thing over, and over again.

I want something new, I want something challenging. I NEED something new, and challenging.

[Nethrick]

And God forbid new players had to spend some time getting good at the game...

What's wrong with getting overwhelmed as a new player? I honestly miss the danger and the chance to actually differentiate myself by overcoming long odds. The learning curves in modern MMOs are perfectly flat horizontal lines, and all it does is make for a boring, unsatisfying and short-term experience. I want to feel some shock and awe and frustration so the victory is that much sweeter.

MMO's have never been about skill grinds, just time and intelligent planning. If you're looking for competitively skill driven and action packed games, you should probably be looking towards the next-gen consoles for that. I'm not saying I advocate a dumbed down pixie hollow mmo, but making a game that frustrates people within the first 30 minutes of game play isn't going to get players hooked. I enjoy games that ramp up in difficulty, and leveling is supposed to be about learning. Learning your character/class/profession/game is one thing, but creating scenarios that are overly challenging before a player even kills his/her first mob is going to drive people away.

[Fozzik]

There's a difference, though, between being able to learn and grow with your character's level/skills, and just not having anything to learn at all. Games these days can be played without ever understanding your class or even really knowing what your spells/skills do. That's not good.

EQ, at least, very much allowed for a player to differentiate their character from others of the same class in many, many ways. One of those ways was the skillful and strategic use of skills/spells. A good cleric could keep 4 groups alive while a bad one couldn't handle a single tank in some cases. I often did things with my beastlord that other folks didn't even know were possible. What happened to that sort of play?

[Visions]

There's a difference, though, between being able to learn and grow with your character's level/skills, and just not having anything to learn at all. Games these days can be played without ever understanding your class or even really knowing what your spells/skills do. That's not good.

EQ, at least, very much allowed for a player to differentiate their character from others of the same class in many, many ways. One of those ways was the skillful and strategic use of skills/spells. A good cleric could keep 4 groups alive while a bad one couldn't handle a single tank in some cases. I often did things with my beastlord that other folks didn't even know were possible. What happened to that sort of play?

My funnest gaming experience was when I was brand new, going into Blackburrow, exploring that tree with the door way, and falling into a pool of water with death surrounding me, and having to attempt a corpse run later. The mistakes I made in EQ, and the steep consequences of those mistakes is what hooked me to online MMOs.

Remember the challenges Barbarians faced coming through the tunnel of darkness to retrieve their corpse, or the first time you fought a creature that threw mud in your eyes, turning your screen black for a short period of time? How about EQ1 PvP where you could be disarmed or blinded?

The good old days.

[Fozzik]

I think it would be very possible to create a different kind of challenge to players besides just mobs with more hit points that cause more damage. Something that would allow players to pit their knowledge and skill against the game world. Clever use of AI and group tactics could make for some neat encounters. What about a simple system where a group of mobs would wander together, and if they saw a player / players on the road, they would send one of their number ahead to attack while the others circle around to cut off escape? Or what about mobs climbing trees or buildings to jump down on you from above? Probably one of the most boring aspects of mobs being out in the open in symmetrical patterns is that they NEVER do anything I don't expect. Even simple things that surprise the player would probably go a long way.

[Ravenwolf]

The idea of making groupings of monsters I find would make the game far more immersive. In the real world if you were to go hiking through a forest you could walk for hours without seeing a single animal, they dont merely pace back and forth in a small area, alone, and open to attack like the mobs in games. Wolves live in packs in dens, wild goats live in small family units, even rabbits and mice live together in colonies. They do not wander blindly around the forest floor with no purpose or direction. I do however understand the limitations of time and technology and practicality. This more immersive monster creation would be more tasking on developers as well as cause issues of overcrowding players in an area all trying to kill the same creatures located in a camp. It is a bit of a "damned if you do and damned if you don't" type of problem unfortuneatly.

[Kendricke]

I think it would be very possible to create a different kind of challenge to players besides just mobs with more hit points that cause more damage. Something that would allow players to pit their knowledge and skill against the game world. Clever use of AI and group tactics could make for some neat encounters. What about a simple system where a group of mobs would wander together, and if they saw a player / players on the road, they would send one of their number ahead to attack while the others circle around to cut off escape? Or what about mobs climbing trees or buildings to jump down on you from above? Probably one of the most boring aspects of mobs being out in the open in symmetrical patterns is that they NEVER do anything I don't expect. Even simple things that surprise the player would probably go a long way.

I don't disagree, but this type of mechanic is really only good for the first or second time it occurs. After that, players quickly realize that single scouts = flanking attacks.

Also, what sounds great on paper for one group of players can quickly degenerates into frustration for others. All through the Rise of Kunark expansion in Everquest II, players begged for more involved dungeons with better AI or scripted encounters. They asked for more difficult group content, with better rewards. With Shadow Odyssey, every one of the 15+ dungeons included multiple scripted encounters and intricate dungeon design. This resulted in HUGE hundred post threads from other players who were very upset that none of the content was just something they could log in and enjoy for the 20-30 minutes before they had to put the kids to bed, or that could be failed if they went through with a bad pickup group, or which involved a bit more coordination than they perhaps wanted to deal with that day, etc.

This is absolutely why I advocate a balanced approach, with specific areas requiring more skill while the general overall open areas of the game remain more accessible to whomever wants to show up with a sword or staff.

[Wisdomandlore]

This is absolutely why I advocate a balanced approach, with specific areas requiring more skill while the general overall open areas of the game remain more accessible to whomever wants to show up with a sword or staff.

The problem is the easier areas will gain all the traffic. The more difficult areas will be nerfed, or they become ghost towns. I've seen this happen many times in MMOs. Either developers make the game challenging and require skill from their players, or they make it easy. You can't please everyone. Considering all the casual, log-in-for-30-minutes-and-bash-some-mob type games out there, Rift might be better off choosing a more challenging route.

[Fozzik]

I don't disagree, but this type of mechanic is really only good for the first or second time it occurs. After that, players quickly realize that single scouts = flanking attacks.

Also, what sounds great on paper for one group of players can quickly degenerates into frustration for others. All through the Rise of Kunark expansion in Everquest II, players begged for more involved dungeons with better AI or scripted encounters. They asked for more difficult group content, with better rewards. With Shadow Odyssey, every one of the 15+ dungeons included multiple scripted encounters and intricate dungeon design. This resulted in HUGE hundred post threads from other players who were very upset that none of the content was just something they could log in and enjoy for the 20-30 minutes before they had to put the kids to bed, or that could be failed if they went through with a bad pickup group, or which involved a bit more coordination than they perhaps wanted to deal with that day, etc.

This is absolutely why I advocate a balanced approach, with specific areas requiring more skill while the general overall open areas of the game remain more accessible to whomever wants to show up with a sword or staff.

That's probably why it's good to not base your design on what people on the boards are saying on a particular day. Anything you do is going to piss someone off... just make a good game and players who hate it enough to feel a need to leave will find some other game which more closely matches their desires. To be honest, there are a TON of choices for people who want the less involved and simpler game. It wouldn't hurt to have one with more challenging and more complex content.

People figuring out that certain attacks = flanking maneuvers doesn't make the system any less good. That's the whole point in fact... more seasoned players learn the tactics and strategies of the certain mobs in certain areas, and are therefore better able to survive and travel. Then, every once in a while, the devs could readjust the AI and throw everything back into flux.

My basic idea is that at this point, as compared to static mobs standing around in a grid, pretty much ANY amount of better quality AI or scripting is better than none (which I also think was the OP's point). And with just a very small amount of AI, it wouldn't be necessary to have any mobs just standing around in a grid. Of course you wouldn't use super-complex systems for everything, but you could at least throw a little life into the world you're creating.

To sum up... devs need to stop phoning in things like mob placement and simple encounters, because those things really matter to the overall feel and enjoyment of their world.

[keppler]

I think this thread has digressed a large amount but to address the original question I would say that yes, every developer tries to get rid of the "cattle" mobs in their game as much as they can. Devs are always looking to improve their game and on the genera as a whole. No one likes "cattle" mobs cause they are super cool and awesome only because they perceive them as necessary. The devs have a very delicate balance to strike when populating their world and I'm sure that they know this.