I think I could be misunderstanding the OP, are you saying you want COW NPCS but don't want to kill them? Or are you saying you don't want to see COW NPCs period?
I think I could be misunderstanding the OP, are you saying you want COW NPCS but don't want to kill them? Or are you saying you don't want to see COW NPCs period?
Trinity Guild Leader - Greybriar Defiant
-Conqueror-
Greenscale's Blight :: River of Souls :: Hammerknell Fortress
Infernal Dawn :: Frozen Tempest :: Endless Eclipse 5/5
I want to see fewer cow-like NPCs. I know it isn't possible (though one can dream) to create an entire world that is 100% interactive without some cow-like NPCs.Originally Posted by Raive
I gotcha. Well I mean cow NPCs are rather sparse as it is, typically only run across them if you hit a farm of some sort or a barn-like city.
Trinity Guild Leader - Greybriar Defiant
-Conqueror-
Greenscale's Blight :: River of Souls :: Hammerknell Fortress
Infernal Dawn :: Frozen Tempest :: Endless Eclipse 5/5
Yeah, I'm not meaning a literal cow, but any mob that just stands there, waiting to be attacked.
Ah so you mean static defenseless mobs. I believe most of the time they arent' MEANT to be attacked, but more as just for the scenary. In some cases they aren't able to be attacked. Or are you saying if such an NPC is attackable then it should more aggressive?
Trinity Guild Leader - Greybriar Defiant
-Conqueror-
Greenscale's Blight :: River of Souls :: Hammerknell Fortress
Infernal Dawn :: Frozen Tempest :: Endless Eclipse 5/5
Placing some humanoid enemies in camps doesn't sound too unreasonable, and has been done before. Maybe give them some convincing idle emotes and such instead of legitimate schedules to lessen the strain on the servers, as mentioned above (I don't know how demanding it would be, but having one mob interact with another every once in a while could be pretty cool). I agree, it is kind of funny seeing a band of mobs out in an open field just staring at the ground waiting to die. Even more ironic if they're meant as convicts or escaping enemy deserters.
Animals can also graze or sleep. I wouldn't know how hard that is to program, though.
"...And there it sat, gleaming in the baking sun like a pitcher of water atop the tallest dune of sand." - S.S.S.
I especially like when they stand in diamond patterns exactly 10m apart just out of aggro range from each other and then pace back and forth. *sarcasm*
It's yet another area where building a world first, game second would make for a much better, more immersive experience. Give us mobs with their own agenda and behavior, and let us figure out how to tackle them. Putting them in straight equidistant rows with big bubbles and bars above their heads to explain in detail the number and type of group we need to kill that particular mob without actually requiring literacy on the part of your players is just a sure-fire way to guarantee the lowest common denominator will play your game.
It sounded to me that Trion's server tech might allow for more complex and widespread AI... since it sounds like they could dedicate a server or servers to just that single task. Not all of the mobs would need overly complex AI...some simple things like what they did in Ryzom like 6 or 7 years ago would make a huge difference in the feel of the world. Then spend a bit more time on the more intelligent NPCs and mobs.
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
forums - Fozzik's Hardware
blog - The Last Bastion
Fozzik, and Sinclair hit the nail on the head.
Another issue I've always had was pulling. I hate when I pull a mob from a room, camp, or what ever his friends don't much care. I would rather see the need to control, or AE kill entire rooms, or camps at once, forcing the players to actually play, and fight. This would also allow for larger dynamic groups that requires 8-10 players.
Having enemies attack each other on occasion could be fun all on its own too. In contrast to the creatures spawning in an ambush-like event, It'd be you staging the surprise attack.
Hell, it doesn't even have to be scripted. Maybe make some enemies naturally antagonistic towards others, and just have it happen all on its own. You could be fighting a group of bandits only to have a band of wandering mercenaries aggro you both.
"...And there it sat, gleaming in the baking sun like a pitcher of water atop the tallest dune of sand." - S.S.S.
One thing I've never seen in an MMORPG (I haven't tried every game) is real line-of-sight aggro. I think that would be an awesome next-gen type feature for somebody to put in their game. Give the AI actual "senses" so if you made too much noise or attack something in plain sight of its friends, they would come after you regardless of distance.
I'm think there were certain mobs kind of like rhinos in a game I played where if you got in front of them they would charge you regardless of how far away you were. I might be imagining that, though.
"Behind this mask, there's an idea... and ideas are bulletproof." -V for Vendetta
forums - Fozzik's Hardware
blog - The Last Bastion
Well said.I especially like when they stand in diamond patterns exactly 10m apart just out of aggro range from each other and then pace back and forth. *sarcasm*
It's yet another area where building a world first, game second would make for a much better, more immersive experience. Give us mobs with their own agenda and behavior, and let us figure out how to tackle them. Putting them in straight equidistant rows with big bubbles and bars above their heads to explain in detail the number and type of group we need to kill that particular mob without actually requiring literacy on the part of your players is just a sure-fire way to guarantee the lowest common denominator will play your game.
It sounded to me that Trion's server tech might allow for more complex and widespread AI... since it sounds like they could dedicate a server or servers to just that single task. Not all of the mobs would need overly complex AI...some simple things like what they did in Ryzom like 6 or 7 years ago would make a huge difference in the feel of the world. Then spend a bit more time on the more intelligent NPCs and mobs.
If Trion wanted to put resources toward it they could do it. At the least they could borrow some of Ryzom's simple systems, which appear to be fairly aged.
Ah, mob sight cones would be interesting. I do miss the noise and visibility indicators from Thief. =)One thing I've never seen in an MMORPG (I haven't tried every game) is real line-of-sight aggro. I think that would be an awesome next-gen type feature for somebody to put in their game. Give the AI actual "senses" so if you made too much noise or attack something in plain sight of its friends, they would come after you regardless of distance.
I'm think there were certain mobs kind of like rhinos in a game I played where if you got in front of them they would charge you regardless of how far away you were. I might be imagining that, though.
Couldn't agree with your guys more.
I remember playing EQ just after launch and wandering from Nektulos Forest into East Commonlands. To the right was the first orc camp. It had 5 to 6 mobs that would spawn around a couple of tents and a fire pit. You HAD to have a group to "break" that camp. If you pulled one, they all came, unless you had an enchanter to mezz them or someone to root them.
Then you killed them, but you tried to space it out. Why? Because the respawn timers were based on when the mob died. So if you timed it right, once you "broke" the full-spawn camp you could pull one or two mobs at a time from then on and spend the whole day grinding on them if you wanted.
There was no pulling a single mob from a camp full of them. The whole idea that in nearly all current MMOs you can shoot one mob in the arse - while his buddy is standing right next to him - and his buddy does nothing about it when he gets shot and runs to attack you.... is preposterous.
I am a huge fan of social agro, where npc's reaction to actions which are taken against their friends in the area. One feature I have always loved from this type of agro is that certain utility classes would be able to temporary blind a enemy so it would not notice his friend being attack. I think such systems provide much more freedom in how you deal with certain locations in dungeons. A group could decide they have enough tank / heal and AOE power to pull entire rooms, groups with mainly single dps brust capabilities would then be able to pull singles anyway with some more patience and practice. And still be able to deal with such rooms or area's.
Additionally if for example such a blinding spell would be able to get resisted by higher leveled mobs or have a chance of occurring on even cons then it could be rather interesting if it fails every so often forcing a group to do it the hard way anyway.
Regards,
Kalbuir
By "cow" mobs I think the OP meant NPC's that just stand around stagnant and not doing anything waiting to be "farmed" for exp. This is absurd and really breaks immersion. Be them a cow, auroch or Battle Bull or a "thief", Brigand, "Wanderer" or a wolf, hound, hellhound. Just standing around waiting to be shot in the *** for exp is boring.
What I want to see:
A group of five wandering orcs. 1) If you shoot the one in the back of the group and he is far enough away from his buddies he comes alone. 2) If you stand in the front and shoot the lead guy they all come after you. 3) If you see them near a group of human brigands and leave them alone they see the brigands and charge them screaming in Orcish. You wait till the battle is over and take out the survivors be it orc or Human. 4) You see the orcs nearing the humans and you attack one group or the other. All three parties join in the battle and depending on what the outcome looks like the battle can go different ways (If there are 5 orcs and 5 humans and you are alone whatever you attack comes after you while the orcs and humans battle. If there are 5 of you and 5 of each of the orcs and humans the battle goes based on faction. If you are all "Dwarves" the "orcs" most hated race they will all attack you and leave the humans alone while the humans attack whoever is nearest. I know this is complicated but could solely based on "aggro meters")
You sneak up behind a lion: 1) You shoot him in the butt with a lightning bolt and the fight ensues. 2) Just as you are about to shoot him a deer comes across the top of the hill and he takes off after the deer and after a chase overcomes him and as he is eating it you sneak up again and shoot him in the butt with a lightning bolt... 3) As you draw your bow and take aim a giant Roc swoops down from the sky and attacks the lion. You shoot the Roc and scare it off and then the lion comes after you. OR you shoot the lion killing it with the help of the Roc and then the Roc thinks you will make a tastey desert and comes after you...
You are riding your prancing pony through the forrest lol'ing at the joke you just read in Guild Chat when the area that you passed through yesterday and was clear now has a pair of stealthed Brigands that jump out of bushes along the road you are travelling on knocks you off your horse scaring it away and leaving you slightly stunned. 1) You get up and start the fight just as an NPC ranger that was heading the other way sees what happened and starts sniping one of the Brigands with his bow drawing it off of you as fight the remaining one. Killing it you let loose a fireball and finish off the other one for reduced EXP. 2) The ranger that just helped you kill the Brigands notices you are the one who has been laying wholesale slaughter to the local deer population collecting hides for the hide merchant in town and begins peppering you with the same arrows he was shooting at the Brigands.
A world that is actually alive and immersive would be a fantastic world indeed. I have seen some of this in other games so I KNOW it can be done. It just matters if the Devs want to maximize the immersion or the proffit. Doing things of this nature will take a lot of work and not everyone will appreciate it. Some people just want to be able to mindless go out and farm NPC that are on a grid evenly spaced out in a 100' grid from each other. Heck one MMORPG I played recently had "stealthed" mobs. Want to find them? Look at the perfect 50' grid of monsters. See that gap? Either some one just killed that one there or there is your "stealthed" NPC. It was lame and borked an otherwise great game.
Having played Ryzom a lot myself i agree completely here. They AI was (and i suppose stilll is) fairly advanced as the herds migrated and players would have to look for them (loved to kill Kinchers :P). Another thing Ryzom did very well was the harvesting part. One could not just begin to harvest. It was dangerous and the nodes could blow up if you harvested to aggresively. Secondly some nodes with harvesting mats were only available when specific ingame season changed. Was very much to my liking - and certainly different from most other games.
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