Community and the Online Role Playing Game

[Korereactor]

Usually, talking about "old school" or other MMOs just invites irrational comments from <insert favorite MMO here> apologists, but the phrase "old school" has been tossed around quite a bit, and I fear it has become something of a generalization. Even more so, given the influx of threads about alternate rule sets, slower leveling, single/cross server PvP, hidden quests, UI convenience, and so forth.

Old school nostalgia is based on player mentality and desire, not necessarily on age or experience level. A desire to be involved in a community, a unique game experience, similar to those found in MMOs of old.

MMORPGs have been around a lot longer than just World of Warcraft, and everyone comparing each new competitor to it seems to forget that. And while WoW is, without question, the most successful game of its genre, it achieved its status by completely changing the rules of the game and arguably removing the "Massively Multiplayer" from "MMORPG".

Since it is an unquestionable triumph, it would be silly to argue that its formula isn't spot on - obviously, the majority of people crave it. For those of us who have left it (and other MMOs that have similar parallels) and are looking elsewhere, we see what can be labeled as a game catering to the lowest common denominator. It is populated by millions of casual players and a handful of Elitist Jerks who keep playing, yet complain each update about how it keeps getting easier as they complete the raid instances during beta testing. The community that complains about things being easier is the same community that complains that things should be easier. /boggle. The game design and development both feeds off of and caters to that mentality.

The rest of us, we miss the days when leveling actually felt like an accomplishment rather than spamming guild chat with "Congo Rats!" every twenty minutes as everyone leveled solo.

Remember when killing monsters actually required a group, camping out a prime location and relying on a well-rounded team and borderline ToS-breaking tactics to level efficiently? Remember spending hours searching for a group of strangers, and the days when you lucked into the perfect set-up and you felt like you had struck gold (and meeting a few trustworthy friends in the process), then feeling your heart sink just because someone had to leave for dinner? Remember when parties actually meant something and everyone rushed to get home on time just to perform the most mundane of tasks in-game? When everyone knew who the best players on the server were simply because everyone had met their peers by necessity? Remember when farming was actually a chore and killing mobs took minutes of combined effort, as opposed to single-handedly dotting half a zone and kiting for a few ticks? Remember when endgame involved an actual army battling over a rare-spawning monster that changed the entire landscape rather than a handful of players in an isolated instance?

Remember when MMOs were actually massively multiplayer?

Pardon me for thinking that this kind of experience and interdependence forges a stronger bond between (virtual) friends than what WoW (and others) currently offers today. But, obviously, that type of game isn't the kind that appeals to the masses. No doubt, many of you will look at those question marks and think all of it an old and antiquated concept, that MMOs have evolved past this, and that everything I brought up is a worthless time sink. Maybe you're right, and I have absolutely no response to that - it's either for you or it isn't. Whether Rift will satisfy those desires is left to be decided, but just because WoW has become the only relevant MMO experience to base opinions off of doesn't mean some of us aren't constantly in search of something more.


Community is achieved through game design. -Vesavius
from The Unofficial Old School Server


Community is not just made up of players, but of the overall experience as well. Game design can foster community, and it is the players that can define it. That being said...

"Looking For Guild"

xD

What made me quit WoW was the new dungeon system. How ridiculous is that? Parties now run through a dungeon in minutes, sometimes with only 4 people. And the repetitiveness of it was sickening. Gotta get those emblems. No thanks, not for me anymore. I remember when you actually had to WORK at clearing a dungeon. Now it's a joke. They practically give epics away. WoW is now one big instance grind.

[Taemek]

You don't HAVE to miss em. They are still out there. UO, EQ1, AC, DAoC are all still being played. Just not by very many people. And guess what? They NEVER did have very many players. That's why most new games in this Genre are MMO lite. Blizzard has proven that millions will pay to play easy mode MMOs. No one (yet) has proven that there are millions willing to pay to play challenging mode MMO.

I wouldn't go as far to say not many people ever did play those games, but in actual fact, after most triple A grade titles in todays market's burst off the shelf release dyes out, the general population that is left after a 6 month period is roughly the same amount of people who stayed and played those games you mentioned and went on to being long term subscribers.

Now, riddle me this, if there is say, 200,000 people at the end of a games peak selling potential that are staying as long term subscribers, wouldn't this be even more grounds for a game of such nature again using todays technology assuming that we know that Blizzard roped in 6 millionish *new* MMORPG gamers into this genre, these gamers would eventually get to some point in thier online gaming life where they want more, as we do. Not everyone falls into a stagnate state and just wants a generic repeat of the same thing over and over again with a new theme.

Now, taking this into consideration, those MMORPG's you mention back in the day were the 4 only MMORPG's on the market and it was percieved that there would only ever be 600,000 people to cater to that kind of market for any one game at any one time. New York times done a story on this years ago around 2005, I used to have it bookmarked but have lost it over the years due to formatting. Knowing this as a fact within the industry itself, and knowing that Blizzard injected the industry with another 6+ million poeple, that number would have surely risen by now in terms of players who are able to invest more time then the average casual.

Knowing this, Sigil Games tried to advance the industry and do something no other MMORPG had done before and take it too the next step, however, plagued by lack of time due to investors pushing them into a early release, basically killed it. Sigil had huge plans for that game which will now never get to frutrition.

I hear alot of people say that *vanilla* WoW was awesome, hard, rewarding, fun, exciting and those orginal players have now come to miss that aspect of WoW that has been watered down to the point of what we see today. So why is it so hard for a gaming company to design and develope an MMORPG for this type of gamer today? Why do they always take the road of mediorcity?

I expect most companies who invest in such titles have databases full of future projections of what they expect to have subscription wise every quarter after release. I expect that most companies main aim in todays market is box sales, then they know and understand that there is only ever really going to be 50 ,000 - 250,000 ongoing subscriptions at any one time with maybe a annual peak for a month or two every year due to expasions or content releases, depending on how often they are released and what type of game it is catering too.

I guess what the real question we should be asking today after watching so many WoW clones die within the first year population wise, is does the market warrant such a huge demand for WoW style gaming or is it simply a misconception that we have come to acknowledge based on inflated subscriber numbers which some know are half Chinese servers and the over hype and excecsive and violent advertisement campagin that Blizzard drives home to almost every Television set around the globe? If it is, then why is WoW taking it back up a notch in regards to leveling curve, raid content and itemization freebies with it's new Expasion in a bid to win these *hardercore* gamers back? Box sales? 1 or two month subscriptions via a carrot on a stick using strategic marketing strategies to lure people back in under the notion that there is change when there really isn't? Who knows, I don't, I don't play the game.

In my honest opinion, after what I have seen left in games that are of a hardcore nature after the casuals have come and gone if they don't like the leveling curve or challenge of current gameplay is, yes there is enough players like us to cater a title too. I would be willing to bet that at least 10% of that 6 million is like us, wanting more depth, more features, new features (not cookie cutter), with deep immerssion into a world you can get lost in for years, not months. 10% of that 6 million is more then what most companies today end up with on a consistant subscriber base platform payment on a monthly basis, so why not a company out there just do what they know can be done and make some hardcore money of us?

[MacDeath]

I wouldn't go as far to say not many people ever did play those games, but in actual fact, after most triple A grade titles in todays market's burst off the shelf release dyes out, the general population that is left after a 6 month period is roughly the same amount of people who stayed and played those games you mentioned and went on to being long term subscribers.

Now, riddle me this, if there is say, 200,000 people at the end of a games peak selling potential that are staying as long term subscribers, wouldn't this be even more grounds for a game of such nature again using todays technology assuming that we know that Blizzard roped in 6 millionish *new* MMORPG gamers into this genre, these gamers would eventually get to some point in thier online gaming life where they want more, as we do. Not everyone falls into a stagnate state and just wants a generic repeat of the same thing over and over again with a new theme.

Now, taking this into consideration, those MMORPG's you mention back in the day were the 4 only MMORPG's on the market and it was percieved that there would only ever be 600,000 people to cater to that kind of market for any one game at any one time. New York times done a story on this years ago around 2005, I used to have it bookmarked but have lost it over the years due to formatting. Knowing this as a fact within the industry itself, and knowing that Blizzard injected the industry with another 6+ million poeple, that number would have surely risen by now in terms of players who are able to invest more time then the average casual.

Knowing this, Sigil Games tried to advance the industry and do something no other MMORPG had done before and take it too the next step, however, plagued by lack of time due to investors pushing them into a early release, basically killed it. Sigil had huge plans for that game which will now never get to frutrition.

I hear alot of people say that *vanilla* WoW was awesome, hard, rewarding, fun, exciting and those orginal players have now come to miss that aspect of WoW that has been watered down to the point of what we see today. So why is it so hard for a gaming company to design and develope an MMORPG for this type of gamer today? Why do they always take the road of mediorcity?

I expect most companies who invest in such titles have databases full of future projections of what they expect to have subscription wise every quarter after release. I expect that most companies main aim in todays market is box sales, then they know and understand that there is only ever really going to be 50 ,000 - 250,000 ongoing subscriptions at any one time with maybe a annual peak for a month or two every year due to expasions or content releases, depending on how often they are released and what type of game it is catering too.

I guess what the real question we should be asking today after watching so many WoW clones die within the first year population wise, is does the market warrant such a huge demand for WoW style gaming or is it simply a misconception that we have come to acknowledge based on inflated subscriber numbers which some know are half Chinese servers and the over hype and excecsive and violent advertisement campagin that Blizzard drives home to almost every Television set around the globe? If it is, then why is WoW taking it back up a notch in regards to leveling curve, raid content and itemization freebies with it's new Expasion in a bid to win these *hardercore* gamers back? Box sales? 1 or two month subscriptions via a carrot on a stick using strategic marketing strategies to lure people back in under the notion that there is change when there really isn't? Who knows, I don't, I don't play the game.

In my honest opinion, after what I have seen left in games that are of a hardcore nature after the casuals have come and gone if they don't like the leveling curve or challenge of current gameplay is, yes there is enough players like us to cater a title too. I would be willing to bet that at least 10% of that 6 million is like us, wanting more depth, more features, new features (not cookie cutter), with deep immerssion into a world you can get lost in for years, not months. 10% of that 6 million is more then what most companies today end up with on a consistant subscriber base platform payment on a monthly basis, so why not a company out there just do what they know can be done and make some hardcore money of us?

You are willing to bet thats it's 10% but, what if extensive market research show thats more likely 1%? or half of a percent? It's a huge bet for companies to make with sketchy data to guide them. When I was a business development manager I used to do what you just attempted. I would say the potential is HUGE, TFBTI (Too Frekin Big To Ignore), and if we only got 10% of it we'll be swimming in money! My bosses wouldn't let me get away with such sloppy work. I had to show PROOF as to the actual size of the market segment and what we had to do to tap that segment.

[Trebori]

Probably zonked out...or off in another forum spewing logic in massive proportions.

Logic?!? Is that what that is he endlessly spews? I have been confusing it with Rhetorical statements that contradict themselves while he steps on his own toes talking in circles....My bad, I didn't know that equalled logic. hehe I guess mommy didn't tell him nobody likes a loud mouth self proclaimed know -it-all. But, enough about that poor little guy and his delusions of grandeur.

I to miss the thrill of the game as it you to be. But, I have come to the realization that those days are gone forever.

[Slowjack]

I would be willing to bet that at least 10% of that 6 million is like us, wanting more depth, more features, new features (not cookie cutter), with deep immerssion into a world you can get lost in for years, not months. 10% of that 6 million is more then what most companies today end up with on a consistant subscriber base platform payment on a monthly basis, so why not a company out there just do what they know can be done and make some hardcore money of us?

Why is all of that even necessary?

If you look at the feature lists of games old and new, the ones of years gone by had significantly less.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, EverQuest never had an overly large number of quests. I've seen people say that quests need to be big and epic, so that there is a sense of reward and accomplishment for doing them. Killing ten rats is not a quest, etc, etc.

So any game that intends to cater to this crowd can save a whole bunch of development time by creating far fewer quests in the world. Maybe they can still provide the 10 rats through something else that isn't called a quest, so people don't get their feathers ruffled.

While I don't intend to pick on you personally, Taemek, I quoted that snippet because that is what I constantly see the "Old School" generation asking for. More. Newer. Which is no different from what everyone else always wants. More. Newer. Bigger. Better. Technologic.

In the end, this will never happen. Even if it is 10% (it's not), even if it is only 5%, or even 1%. It will never happen. Investors want money, and they want it quickly, so they can use that money to continue making more money. You can't go to these people and say, "We need about $75 million (Copernicus)/$100 million (Rift)/$150+ million (SW:ToR)" but then say, "Oh... at about $60 a box, and a tiny fraction of the MMO market (no no, not the millions of casuals who play WoW or Farmville... not that money tree, no) as a subscriber base ($60 x300k + $15x12 monthsx300k people), you can expect to see returns after oh... well... 3-5 years for us to make it (because it's a new IP and needs to be "original" and "not like WoW that makes billions") and then... well... we could start paying you back after the first year or so, but you won't actually get all of your money back till about 2-5 years after release... so... give me 100 million now, and I will give it back to you in 10 years."

... what?

Investors: "How about we give you 100 million, you make a game like that WoW thing that makes billions, and you give us our money within 1-3 years of your release? Call of Duty dwarfed that number in its first week, WoW continues to make how much money every year, so none of this 10 years business. You make a game like that WoW thing, everyone profits."

They don't play MMOs.

They don't give a **** if the market doesn't want another one of those "WoW things".

WoW makes money. They want to make money. A game like it can be made. Many fail, but this is where a great marketing team makes all the difference.

We've played too many of these games for anything to really be "new".

EQ wasn't EQ because it had so many things going for it... EQ was EQ because it had very little going for it outside of being the first game to ever do what it did. We as players made EQ great, because we enjoyed playing in the first game to do what EQ did, with each other, and the world of MMOs was a lot smaller back then.

And, lastly... my sig, because he finishes it off much better than I do.

You can easily replace "excitement" with "immersion" or "challenge" or whatever the hell buzz words the "Old School" likes to use to describe a game that really... was flying by the seat of its pants and was only the way it was because no one else had come along to offer more.

[Morguen]

Exactly Slowjack. That's why I feel a company needs to come along and build a game that is simple. The graphics can look nice etc. But the mechanics are simple. Don't need 1000s of quests. Don't need quest hubs. Spend your money on building the world and populate it with people and monsters etc. It doesn't have to be rocket surgery.
Just toss us in and we as players will inhabit it and make it our own.
We have explorers, RPers, business people, number cruncher/envelope pushers, people that want the social aspect, people that want to group and people that want to solo. Just give us a stage we will create the drama.
Make your world perilous, dangerous, things that get our blood pumping . Think kithicor at nite. Wasn't much development needed there. MAKE IT DARK..viola SCARY.
So I say cut out all the fluff, save your money. Spend your money on wide open huge dungeons and places for people to come together.
There, done. Was that so hard? Our imaginations far out stretch anything you can try and make up.
Im not a pvper but I understand the logic. As of yet a computer AI can never be as unpredictable as a human.
The K.I.S.S. system needs to apply here. And keep it cheap too.

[VeryThinIce]

I don't think either ways is good or bad. When I first started playing MMOs the excitement was about getting to group with some folks. Now I'd rather figure out what's going on before I join a group and have some peeps whining about who's failing. I'd rather join and get through the task sovereign. There are enough parts of each game which require team work, it does not have to be each and every task that cannot be achieved alone. As much as it is fun to master a difficult quest with a group, it is disappointing to have to wait or repeat a trivial quest many times.

[Elizinator]

im actually fairly sanguine that those experiences we all love so much are not impossible now. recent MMOs have been relatively disappointing, but i do not doubt that, seeings as how so many people recognize this, that eventually a game will come that gives us the enjoyment of those older ones in their younger days.

i hope it will be rift. sounds to me like there is an excellent community here, and i look forward to playing with many of you =D

that being said, we may all have a while yet to wait. for those of us wearing our hearts on our sleeves, the further disappointment will hut, but we feel that commensurately with our eventual enjoyment. so good luck =D

[Theos1]

I think msot players that have been around a few years hope the games return to what they used to be but sadly almost all are trying to be wow.