NO DPS or Threat Meters

[Sire]

And this is what baffles me about the whole thing. So it takes me 30 seconds more to be a tool for someone having crappy dps. Is that a big deal? There is this irrational fear that all of these "wow kiddies" are going to join "their" game and make it unbearable with their smack talk.

Do people fail to realize that if these people that crave dps meters this much start playing a game without an addon for it, they are just going to parse it? If you live for the meters, you don't give up the meters. Eliminating ingame dps meters will solve nothing.

Part of my argument is that allowing meters will mean that the devs will have to release the API and other more harmful addons can come out of that. DBM often gave you a 10 second warning of when bosses were going to pull their special moves,I would prefer not to see these in the community.

You're wrong actually, but it all depends on Trion. As Trion can have certain addons disabled or banned in-game. Especially if they make it against their code-of-conduct, or terms-of-service.

As it stands now, adding an overlay meter may or may not be against TOS. Depending on if they release the combat logs, if someone mentions another persons DPS, they run the risk of being reported.
That should be enough if they don't release the API.

[silentwraith]

I think what this reminds me of most is the no kid left behind program in the USA countless countries mock this system as it truly doesn't help the kid when he is pushed through grades..
or the parents that argue against having a marking system because :

1. Discrimination against those with low marks.
2. Lack of self worth
3. Exclusion
4. Isn't truly based on their child's "intelligence"

Sound familiar?

I don't know where this terrible thought process comes from but it is as dumb in life as it is in games... real life you are gonna be judged people are pack animals by nature your place is always being judged.
Ignoring the child's marks doesn't make him better in fact the child is hugged and told he is special and can join the group when really he is still never going to Harvard because he never learned to fall and was never pressured to be better..


Meters are the same as grades. Those who fear them are usually those who can't pass.

[BucMan]

And this is what baffles me about the whole thing. So it takes me 30 seconds more to be a tool for someone having crappy dps. Is that a big deal? There is this irrational fear that all of these "wow kiddies" are going to join "their" game and make it unbearable with their smack talk.

Do people fail to realize that if these people that crave dps meters this much start playing a game without an addon for it, they are just going to parse it? If you live for the meters, you don't give up the meters. Eliminating ingame dps meters will solve nothing.

Actually the hope is the lack of fancy dps meter will lead to them searching elsewhere for their ******baggery. Ease of Use. Oh, and effort.

[Cheor]

Never once used an addon in an mmorpg. I actually enjoy playing the game for the game. And personally, if everyone was striving to be the same best and have the same battle everytime what fun would that be? I like remembering a tank because he did make a mistake and took a mob we couldn't handle but we survived. Or the person that didn't do the highest dps but he never grabbed aggro. THOSE are the types of things we should be looking for, not stats. Isn't that the point of a massive MULTIPLAYER game? To interact with other players? Eh, it may just be me though. (Also have never used vent, I enjoy typing.)

[Mr_Teatime]

Easy: What is a good base number for someone who wants to go on a raid into Z zone?? If you are in a 10 man raid what would be acceptable? Determine that, and then have a few PUGs going for a minimum DPS of 10% more than what would be acceptable. Player X has DPS that is perfectly acceptable for a 10 man raid going into this zone. He has every bit of business being on this raid. But because of the visiblity of the meters the PUG raid leader kicks you out because you aren't 10% over acceptable. I have seen this happen to guildies all the time. Either before the raid starts by simply asking(and the guildie giving an honest answer) or during after watching the meters.

I just showed you how easy access to DPS meters caused a player with good stats being hurt because they weren't good enough. PUGs are notorius for wanting WAY more than is necessary. Even in Heroic 5 man instances.

Necessary in what manner? Necessary to complete that 10 man run in 2 or 4 hours? How many wipes? What is necessary for you to complete a 10 man isn't necessarily what is being asked for.

You have to face facts. There will always be jerks. Ignore them. Just like there will probably be guilds pug'n a spot or two that will not want you if you aren't close to matching their dps, because it slows the run down.

If you are having problems in heroic 5 mans during wotlk, where it took literally half a day at most to be able to do decent dps, then there are some other issues at play.

[Haseno]

Also don't bother arguing with haseno he is in the casual circle that gets upset when someone gets kicked for being afk in a raid he has already stated it.. he has also stated many times that players should be forced into running with someone before judging their abilities.. however many of us choose to pick ahead of time saving wipes and having to do 3 hour runs that can be done in 1 hr.

You obviously are the emperor. You choose which "circle" that I'm in. I'm sorry I defied you massah. I'm sorry you can't tell if someone AFK's in your raid. Having a good eye helps with this. Sure, if a player AFK's it's annoying. But who made you boss, to exclude them. Do you know why they AFK'd. Real Life > Raiding

It seems to me you're scared to spend time in a raid. Who'd you say was in the casual circle again? Everyone deserves an equal chance at raiding, and their amount of skill should not be the deciding factor. Don't allow the people in raids if you don't like them, you don't need meters to do this.

If you're afraid to wipe, that's good. Fear is what makes raiding fun! Seems to me you don't want to ever lose. Doesn't make any game fun if you know you'll never lose.

Basically the arguments commonly in this thread are casual vs hardcore... and those who like to see others performance and those who don't ... Just think of it as school.. of course those with high grades love tests.. they can handle them.. and those who cannot always whine about why they didn't get high grades and how the test should be different.

This isn't an argument versus Casual and Hardcore. But if you wanna' make it that way fine. True hardcore players don't need meters. Casuals don't need them either. But then again, it seems typical for people to want a crutch.

[silentwraith]

Easy: What is a good base number for someone who wants to go on a raid into Z zone?? If you are in a 10 man raid what would be acceptable? Determine that, and then have a few PUGs going for a minimum DPS of 10% more than what would be acceptable. Player X has DPS that is perfectly acceptable for a 10 man raid going into this zone. He has every bit of business being on this raid. But because of the visiblity of the meters the PUG raid leader kicks you out because you aren't 10% over acceptable. I have seen this happen to guildies all the time. Either before the raid starts by simply asking(and the guildie giving an honest answer) or during after watching the meters.

I just showed you how easy access to DPS meters caused a player with good stats being hurt because they weren't good enough. PUGs are notorius for wanting WAY more than is necessary. Even in Heroic 5 man instances.

Once again proving my point... get better and the raid lead will let you in... you were kicked because you weren't as good as the other guy I could bring because he does 20% more dps then you..

It's like sales why should I hire the guy who sells 100k a year even tho hes good when I can find a guy who sells consistently for 150k.. 100k is damn good but yes I took the one who was better.

Also your argument still falls under the catergory of elitism which I mentioned invalidating it as I will parse and still kick him if I have better players begging for a fast run..

And players find out who leads best the guy who never has a fail group because he watches EVERY aspect including dps in his raids.. Guess what those are the same guilds in the top 100 those who expect the best..

Don't like it? There are other groups to join.. Life isn't fair ...

And you can be a baby all you want... however not having meters won't stop this scenario from happening.

[Mr_Teatime]

Never once used an addon in an mmorpg. I actually enjoy playing the game for the game. And personally, if everyone was striving to be the same best and have the same battle everytime what fun would that be? I like remembering a tank because he did make a mistake and took a mob we couldn't handle but we survived. Or the person that didn't do the highest dps but he never grabbed aggro. THOSE are the types of things we should be looking for, not stats. Isn't that the point of a massive MULTIPLAYER game? To interact with other players? Eh, it may just be me though. (Also have never used vent, I enjoy typing.)

The easiest way for dps not to pull aggro is to not dps. How is that good? Pulling great dps while not pulling aggro, which you wouldn't know unless you have meters, is great on the other hand.

[BucMan]

Meters are the same as grades. Those who fear them are usually those who can't pass.

Tell me when you start a new semester of school that the grading system changes. If you pass you pass. Your grades aren't determined pass\fail by your peers.


The data is just that data. It doesn't think, eat, or drink. It just is. It is the interpretation of that data that causes the problem. This is done not by a teacher/principal/administration. It's done by your peers. Human error.

[silentwraith]

You obviously are the emperor. You choose which "circle" that I'm in. I'm sorry I defied you massah. I'm sorry you can't tell if someone AFK's in your raid. Having a good eye helps with this. Sure, if a player AFK's it's annoying. But who made you boss, to exclude them. Do you know why they AFK'd. Real Life > Raiding

It seems to me you're scared to spend time in a raid. Who'd you say was in the casual circle again? Everyone deserves an equal chance at raiding, and their amount of skill should not be the deciding factor. Don't allow the people in raids if you don't like them, you don't need meters to do this.

If you're afraid to wipe, that's good. Fear is what makes raiding fun! Seems to me you don't want to ever lose. Doesn't make any game fun if you know you'll never lose.



This isn't an argument versus Casual and Hardcore. But if you wanna' make it that way fine. True hardcore players don't need meters. Casuals don't need them either. But then again, it seems typical for people to want a crutch.

No true hardcore players like to track progress and improve the raid.. and know that unless its an emergency RL can be done outside the raid... If you want the raid to carry you like the casual your whole argument proves you to be that is fine.. However I should be able to see quickly your not there so I can ask whats up?

If its a rl emergency you obviously need to be replaced np go deal with real life. .. If its not and your just not paying attention I can find someone who is hardcore and would LOVE to take your spot..

That's not being called "god" its called good raid leadership.. which proves once again you have never been in a top 100 guild as a leader or as an officer.

[Haseno]

Don't like it? There are other groups to join.. Life isn't fair ...

And you can be a baby all you want... however not having meters won't stop this scenario from happening.

Sounds to me like you're the true elitist. Thanks for being the mature individual, and not considering players. Someone had the nerve to call me the bane of MMO's? Pshhhh....ya...okay.

[silentwraith]

Tell me when you start a new semester of school that the grading system changes. If you pass you pass. Your grades aren't determined pass\fail by your peers.


The data is just that data. It doesn't think, eat, or drink. It just is. It is the interpretation of that data that causes the problem. This is done not by a teacher/principal/administration. It's done by your peers. Human error.

Really you must go to high end school.. .one that doesn't require a certain GPA to get into graduate school... or to get into a higher level of education.. Good luck getting hired with the attitude of a pass is a pass... When someone who like me thinks that a 2.0 is a as good as fail applies with a 3.8-4.0 and gets your job you can again whine that its an unfair judgment.

One day you will end up working for someone who thought differently.

[silentwraith]

Sounds to me like you're the true elitist. Thanks for being the mature individual, and not considering players. Someone had the nerve to call me the bane of MMO's? Pshhhh....ya...okay.

Not gonna tell you I'm not elitist.. never claimed not to be.. but once again having meters or not having meters won't change this or what happens due to it.. .the whole point is it has nothing to do with meters it has to do with the players .

[Haseno]

That's not being called "god" its called good raid leadership.. which proves once again you have never been in a top 100 guild as a leader or as an officer.

Hahahahahahahaha. Oh, I'm laughing sooo hard right now.

Good Raid Leaders, are parts of Good Communities. Good raid leaders lead their groups to victory, with overwhelming odds. Which means accepting all varieties of players, with skill being excluded.

By the way, Legacy of Steel. Thank you.

[silentwraith]

Seriously an old EQ guild... please.. Yawn... I see where you get your dated ideals from.

Skill is not excluded in top guild it is part of what makes a top guild...

Take an example from sports.. no top team gets to the top without having some of the best players and a couch that sits out the bad ones or the ones that leave in practices...