NO DPS or Threat Meters

[StinkHaggan]

That data is nothing but compiled information on your own performance. So you are sitting here talking up this entire mess about how this data makes the game easier, but In reality I think your turned off by self evaluation; because you don't want to be told that you could improve. So ultimately your just justifying your own inability to improve. My advice is to join a guild that doesn't evaluate on performance and you can limp thru content. The rest of us will use our data to improve our gameplay and debating this will not change that. Either addons will be incorporated and the option will be given, or players will develop it on their own, Either way it will happen.

If Trion do not want them they can make it so we don't get them. Point in case Lotro. From the start they said no to meters of any kind and they still don't have them despite the protests of the minority in their community. The devs and most of the community do not want them, yet they still have end game content and people change items, rotations etc to improve on their runs and become better. Yet they manage and people still enjoy the game and strive to be better in their play.

Plus not all guilds are after instant gratification by being first or the best, some actually play to enjoy the game and content at their own pace. Not all race against other guilds to homogenize a dungeon down to a routine of blind repetition, which meters help promote.

If someone needs a meter to tell them if they are doing it right then they really have not learnt how to play their class, added to that is the people who do know what they are doing should have it within their capabilities to identify people making mistakes and help them improve. This is what helps make good guilds not the ones who have dungeon xyz on farm and can do it in 5 minutes flat.

I see that this is causing some heated 'debate' (I use the term lightly) which is the case whenever I have seen it brought up in other games. Some people want it, some don't - both believe they are right, guess we wait and see what Trion decide for release.

[Warzhark]

If Trion do not want them they can make it so we don't get them. Point in case Lotro. From the start they said no to meters of any kind and they still don't have them despite the protests of the minority in their community. The devs and most of the community do not want them, yet they still have end game content and people change items, rotations etc to improve on their runs and become better. Yet they manage and people still enjoy the game and strive to be better in their play.

Plus not all guilds are after instant gratification by being first or the best, some actually play to enjoy the game and content at their own pace. Not all race against other guilds to homogenize a dungeon down to a routine of blind repetition, which meters help promote.

If someone needs a meter to tell them if they are doing it right then they really have not learnt how to play their class, added to that is the people who do know what they are doing should have it within their capabilities to identify people making mistakes and help them improve. This is what helps make good guilds not the ones who have dungeon xyz on farm and can do it in 5 minutes flat.

I see that this is causing some heated 'debate' (I use the term lightly) which is the case whenever I have seen it brought up in other games. Some people want it, some don't - both believe they are right, guess we wait and see what Trion decide.

Lotro is a great example of success. You have a game like wow that has an EXTREMELY competitive raiding enviorment and then you the a game that couldn't even substain itself with subscriptions and was forced to go into the free to play realm. Personally as a businessman I prefer to look at successful trends and apply them to things I do.

[Huhn]

This is what i got from reading this thread

ant - parsers: it dumbs down the game, you should go through combat logs manually like back in my day. I don't want kids spamming meter in chat all the time. only bad players use meters. general elitism and passive aggressive trolling.


pro combat parsers: why work hard when you don't have to. it is a helpful too for raid leaders to keep track of their raid. it helps players in finding better ways to play classes. yes there are those that "abuse" meters, but the advantages of having them far outweigh the minor annoyances you occasionally run into. its time those against these types of mods take off the rose colored glasses.


I honestly haven't seen one good reason in this thread as to why these types of mods shouldn't be allowed

[Warzhark]

That's sorta naive.

I have already stated meters or not aren't going to matter to me that much in the long run. You can try to argue with me all you want but what i've said about meters is reality. They do provide you data that makes the game easier than not having that data.

You can try to twist that all you want but it's not going to change it.

The reality of it is you know nothing about me, I advocate for no meters because it makes content more challenging, from that you deduce that I have a fear of being evaluated. That is simply a cheap conclusion because you yourself are in denial that heavily modded games and features like meters are easy-mode and quite newb friendly.



It's a bit silly to take someone saying someone else is "butthurt" as them being homophobic.

Shrug I have been raiding hardcore since the launch of eq1 and personally a dps meter hasn't changed my level of commitment or difficulty. Your basically saying that using a calculator makes math easier, well yah it does but i am not going to start doing everything by hand and throw it out because it ups the challenge.

[dinhosaur]

Lotro is a great example of success. You have a game like wow that has an EXTREMELY competitive raiding enviorment and then you the a game that couldn't even substain itself with subscriptions and was forced to go into the free to play realm. Personally as a businessman I prefer to look at successful trends and apply them to things I do.

You are either extremely misinformed or you are just trying to stir things up.

WoW is a laughingstock for raiding... has been for a long time. Even the top raiding guilds think the raiding has been made way too casual friendly and easy.

And we all know that is fine, as wow is a game designed to appeal to the masses of casuals, but some mmo companies are trying to make challenging games, not games where you are guaranteed to progress no matter how bad you are.

Shrug I have been raiding hardcore since the launch of eq1 and personally a dps meter hasn't changed my level of commitment or difficulty. Your basically saying that using a calculator makes math easier, well yah it does but i am not going to start doing everything by hand and throw it out because it ups the challenge.

That's fine as long as you understand that that means some players like to be challenged more than you do. As long as you can accept that reality there is no problem with your preferences.

You want an easier game, that's fine, you have a right to desire what you desire, but there are plenty of mmos that cater to that right now, there is a shortage of mmos that are challenging though.

This is what i got from reading this thread

ant - parsers: it dumbs down the game, you should go through combat logs manually like back in my day. I don't want kids spamming meter in chat all the time. only bad players use meters. general elitism and passive aggressive trolling.


pro combat parsers: why work hard when you don't have to. it is a helpful too for raid leaders to keep track of their raid. it helps players in finding better ways to play classes. yes there are those that "abuse" meters, but the advantages of having them far outweigh the minor annoyances you occasionally run into. its time those against these types of mods take off the rose colored glasses.


I honestly haven't seen one good reason in this thread as to why these types of mods shouldn't be allowed

They make the game easier, through providing easy access to tons of data. Some players prefer more of a challenge. That's just the reality of it.

[Warzhark]

You are either extremely misinformed or you are just trying to stir things up.

WoW is a laughingstock for raiding... has been for a long time. Even the top raiding guilds think the raiding has been made way too casual friendly and easy.

And we all know that is fine, as wow is a game designed to appeal to the masses of casuals, but some mmo companies are trying to make challenging games, not games where you are guaranteed to progress no matter how bad you are.



That's fine as long as you understand that that means some players like to be challenged more than you do. As long as you can accept that reality there is no problem with your preferences.

You want an easier game, that's fine, you have a right to desire what you desire, but there are plenty of mmos that cater to that right now, there is a shortage of mmos that are challenging though.

Well I can't keep up with you anymore, me and my friends had a good laugh at you. Good luck on your crusade for a challenge. Personally I don't think you will impact anything outside of wasting time on a forum.

[StinkHaggan]

Lotro is a great example of success. You have a game like wow that has an EXTREMELY competitive raiding enviorment and then you the a game that couldn't even substain itself with subscriptions and was forced to go into the free to play realm. Personally as a businessman I prefer to look at successful trends and apply them to things I do.

Give me another example of a mmo that rivals wow's numbers. With out turning this into wow bashing - it produces a generic experience for the majority, hence its success. Some people want more or something different or unique, hence other games try for other niches ie. eve and lotro to name two, yet they are still viable business that make plenty of cash despite not being able to maintain wow's numbers. For the record since lotro went f2p (yes it was floundering before, despite a successful launch) it is actually making more money than when it was subscription based (can't give numbers off the top of my head but they released figures recently). Plus f2p seems to be an increasing trend weather it is good or not is another thread for another day. However, this is a diversion from the issue of meters.

If your logic is to apply what works for other people all the time then what makes your product unique?

And why have the argument of meters if they have already stipulated that Trion don't want them, just had a look and there seems to be other threads on the same issue, with very little being resolved as people don't want to accept that at this point in time there will be no meters in the game.

[dinhosaur]

Well I can't keep up with you anymore, me and my friends had a good laugh at you. Good luck on your crusade for a challenge. Personally I don't think you will impact anything outside of wasting time on a forum.

Of course you can't keep up with me, but are we honestly surprised with that?

You obviously were unable to understand the pros and cons of mods like dps/heal/threat meters.

Or are simply in denial and trying to find reasons to justify your easy-mode preferences.

[Phunbabba]

Yes please. WoW was actually fun before it became an elitist game of numbers and meters. Even though I could top anyone, I hated the backbiting that took place because of it.

[Lucklez]

This is what i got from reading this thread

ant - parsers: it dumbs down the game, you should go through combat logs manually like back in my day. I don't want kids spamming meter in chat all the time. only bad players use meters. general elitism and passive aggressive trolling.


pro combat parsers: why work hard when you don't have to. it is a helpful too for raid leaders to keep track of their raid. it helps players in finding better ways to play classes. yes there are those that "abuse" meters, but the advantages of having them far outweigh the minor annoyances you occasionally run into. its time those against these types of mods take off the rose colored glasses.


I honestly haven't seen one good reason in this thread as to why these types of mods shouldn't be allowed

What about the community building aspect of having ppl that care (to a certain lvl) and forfill their roles as classleaders and officers? When it comes to enjoying something, there are more factors involved than saving time.

I been doing all the roles in a guild management part, leading big or small groups, doing it with 10 ppl or chippin in on events with 500+ ppl. If the raids where open for 500ish ppl at same time, I would see how a guild officer (and so on), could benefit from adjusting the guilds performance. But allowing these types of addons, allows any single of your members to start talking. And we all know that there is a big difference between those with competence and those that are unexperienced.

However, if you just want the guildtag to get loot and to be the best, then all you guys should hook up and play on a own server where these addons could be legal.
Those that want content and to participate in order to build a guild feeling and to allow ppl to play their char in the way that it gives them the most joy, should be spared for the meters.

Aswell, some has bashed the old ppl, sure bash away, its no rule to not do so. But in any other aspect of life, its the most beneficial way of doing stuff, by keeping the competence even when ppl swap out.
Games and guilds turn into something different that how it was released when they implement meters.

having the meters :
+ saves time, more organized and no room to tell lies when the numbers speak for it self.
- attacks eachothers ways of playing the game how they adapted to it.

Not having them :
+Allows ppl to interact alot more, getting their views out and shaping guilds with their style. Better boundaries between players. Avoid racing through content, allowing developers to focus on more dept rather than new boss to kill new boss to kill new boss to kill. Gives a bigger feeling off beating hard stuff.
-someone gotta go over logs if its needed in order to progress when your raid or guild hits a roadblock.

Let the devs focus on quests, items and bugs. Storyline and all other aspect of the product they are looking forward to give us.

My opinion:
I hope they ban the meters.

And as a solution to meet the pro meters on half way:
Allow a trion made meter via the guildtool, let leader decide who to use it, and only allow the use of it during guild events. (or similar)

[Corwynn_Maelstrom]

-someone gotta go over logs if its needed in order to progress when your raid or guild hits a roadblock.

There won't even be a need to do this since the logs are available: there will be parsers out of game.

[Krish]

There won't even be a need to do this since the logs are available: there will be parsers out of game.

How is that parsers out of game is fine but not in game?

EQ2 does not have in game parser but its easy to copy paste from the out of game parser.

Anyway I am all for parsers (I don't mean just DPS, but more along the line of combat log analysers) .

[Ciowyn]

And right now how do you know the logs are going to be avaiable, you do realise it could be possible not to give any access to combat logs. (ie nothing saved on the local machine).

I like parsers to a point, as long as it only gives information about your own performance, not everyone in group / raid, its about self improvement not about whos got the biggest dps score.

[Raelizer]

Ok first off ill say i hate addons, but lets be real here if trion wants to compete with the big boys they are prolly gonna have to allow them otherwise those few million that are dependent upon them to play the game for them wont subscribe. and as much as i hate to say it, this game cannot succeed without subs. some people say "we dont want the wow fans here"
well you see we actually do want them here. trion is a company in this to make money and a fun game for us to play, sadly enough if they dont make money we cant play. get it?

[Lockiszemode]

Give me another example of a mmo that rivals wow's numbers. With out turning this into wow bashing - it produces a generic experience for the majority, hence its success. Some people want more or something different or unique, hence other games try for other niches ie. eve and lotro to name two, yet they are still viable business that make plenty of cash despite not being able to maintain wow's numbers. For the record since lotro went f2p (yes it was floundering before, despite a successful launch) it is actually making more money than when it was subscription based (can't give numbers off the top of my head but they released figures recently). Plus f2p seems to be an increasing trend weather it is good or not is another thread for another day. However, this is a diversion from the issue of meters.

If your logic is to apply what works for other people all the time then what makes your product unique?

And why have the argument of meters if they have already stipulated that Trion don't want them, just had a look and there seems to be other threads on the same issue, with very little being resolved as people don't want to accept that at this point in time there will be no meters in the game.

Well, I was going to say Runescape but that kinda drives the point home. All the fuss over parsers I find to be funny. Eventually someone will create that addon and everyone will decry it as the end of the game and yet it will continue going. Its a matter of time like finding oil in your backyard before someone comes knocking.