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Thread: Warrior DPS, a useless liability in raids.

  1. #1
    Shadowlander monkeyisland's Avatar
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    Default Warrior DPS, a useless liability in raids.

    So (as you can see from my post count) I very rarely post, however I do read and play a lot. I generally keep my opinions and criticism to myself however since I will likely unsub over this issue I figured I may as well put my thoughts up before I peace out (no you can't have my stuff).

    Trion, as someone who has killed all your raid content up to Maelforge which we are currently working on, I feel that melee dps is often neglected and sometimes downright punished just for being in raid, it makes guild leaders not want to bring us and we lose interest in the game. It is not fun to die repeatedly for no other reason than you chose warrior class.

    I don't mind the odd anti-melee mechanic to keep us on our toes, however there should be a trade-off and one or two fights where we are actually superior to other classes. Ideally our single target dps in a standstill fight would be higher than any other class, balanced by the fact that we are heavily punished for any kind of movement/disconnect. This is not the case, mages and rogues can easily out dps warriors from 30m away. Currently our only real advantage is that our ST and AOE dps is contained within the same spec, however there is no fight in the current Infernal Dawn raid that actually requires this other then perhaps Laethys. Allow me to illustrate with some examples.

    Warboss Drak:

    Anti-melee mechanic (giant red circle) that cannot possibly be escaped in time, requiring us to do sub-par ranged dps for much of the fight. We can't even aoe because the adds will just respawn and we may hit sheep.

    Ituziel:

    Fire waves and risk of cleave limit our ability to put out anywhere near competitive dps compared to rogues and mages who only need to take about 10 steps the entire fight.

    Maklamos:

    In it's current broken state this is probably the best fight for warriors.

    Ember Conclave:

    No benefit to warriors, aoe is pointless since the bosses health will reset with each death. Additional melee simply make crystal placement harder as your raid cannot stack in the same place. During the last phase we cannot do any dps at all since we are required to be at ranged, often further than 20m.

    Rusilia:

    Not a huge difference on this one, other than that we need to move out of melee for Thousand Cuts thereby lowering our already meagre dps.

    Laethys:

    The original Laethys fight had orbs that would simply kill you for being melee. The only way to deal with these was to run off and try to die alone. AOE'ing the adds would be good if it wasn't such a tiny part of the fight, you get two add spawns that all die in about 10-15 seconds, so warriors are useful for about 30 seconds of a 10 minute fight. The rest of the time the amount of movement/disconnet required again make it impossble to put out competitive dps.

    Eggs:

    I had to leave for P2 of the encounter but as a melee it is virtually impossible to dodge waves, you can't see them until they are almost on top of you since his hitbox requires you to be almost standing inside him. If you try to turn your camera around to see waves you can't see anything except Maelforge's enormous model. I suppose we could do the camera distance mod but is this really what was intended?

    Maelforge:

    Perhaps the greatest insult of all for melee in ID, a boss that we can't actually hit. There is one platform for the tank that he is constantly cleaving/breathing on, the other platform is for ranged dps only and we get to throw Flamespears and generally be useless.


    TLDR: Being a melee warrior is ID is a total joke, you bring less utility than rogues and mages, you can't heal or support like every other class can and your dps isn't even any better for it. You will die more often and effectively become a burden for the rest of your raid to deal with. Ultimately your GM will stop inviting you if you don't get the hint and drop yourself voluntarily.

    So long and thanks for all the fish.
    Last edited by monkeyisland; 05-27-2012 at 01:36 AM. Reason: spelling

  2. #2
    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    A lot of good points here.

    ID is very melee unfriendly, on a daily basis I wish we had less warriors and could run more Mages/Rogues.

  3. #3
    Rift Chaser Talking The Hardest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyisland View Post
    Maelforge:

    Perhaps the greatest insult of all for melee in ID, a boss that we can't actually hit. There is one platform for the tank that he is constantly cleaving/breathing on, the other platform is for ranged dps only and we get to throw Flamespears and generally be useless.
    If this is true, then gg trion...
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  4. #4
    Plane Touched Jmarz's Avatar
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    I will agree with warboss + conclave, and I cannot speak for eggs nor maelforge as i havent done eggs nor seen what you are referring to on maelforge, but as for the other fights here is my take on it.

    Ituziel your movement/disconnects/chance at getting cleaved it all down to what strategy you use, we used a strat where our melee dps has little to no disconnects for the entire fight.

    Rusila - max melee out of the path of thousand cuts = win, almost no movement(aside from when she ports)

    Original Laethys fight not sure where your going with this but thats entirely wrong, melee would stay in melee 100% of the time, with 0 disconnects and only movement when when the red orb spawned and you ran through her to the other side. nor did they die from the orbs, the damage was spread among all in the melee(let me note this is also based on your strategy, too many at range and the orbs will kill the melee). warriors as far as i can tell are prolly your best tool on laethys dps wise. p2 ive not seen the need for too much movement either aside from gold piles and blue circles(sorry forget what they were called) so not as many disconnects as there could have been.


    TLDR: its not as melee unfriendly as you think it is.
    Last edited by Jmarz; 05-27-2012 at 02:56 AM.

  5. #5
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    The OP is gona regret this thread, but lets not blame him. He must be new.

    http://i.imgur.com/JjZgk.gif

  6. #6
    Shadowlander monkeyisland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmarz View Post
    TLDR: its not as melee unfriendly as you think it is.
    I can see your point, and you're right most of it is manageable, albeit with a somewhat more unforgiving learning curve. I suppose my point is more;

    What unique or essential contribution do they make to the raid?

    Would another class do the same job better with less risk?

    Why bring warriors at all when you could stack mages or rogues?
    Last edited by monkeyisland; 05-27-2012 at 03:42 AM.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Zyzyx's Avatar
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    drak - need warriors cuz your mages heal the boss
    ituziel - warriors can suicide in front of woi
    conclave - need warriors to aoe
    rusila - need warriors to run cannon shots
    maklamos - need warriors to aoe
    laethys - need warriors to aoe



    Warrior dps is absolutely essential on most of the fights so far in ID.
    Last edited by Zyzyx; 05-27-2012 at 03:52 AM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    When time allows I'll be looking at the issue with the class guys.

  8. #8
    Ascendant Ajax1114's Avatar
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    I've heard the half joking, half deadly serious idea that Trion hates melee and seen the countless examples to totally ignore that this game is harsh on melee. There's no denying that. However...

    On Warboss Drak, if you're a caster, you can say goodbye to DPS'ing for the first couple minutes of the fight due to Molten Rejuvenation. Melee aren't the only ones getting the short end of the stick on that fight. Depending on the strat you use, as a ranged, you also may not be DPS'ing much, if at all, when Drak himself becomes active due to contract duty.

    I can't speak much about the rest of the bosses in ID, but I know that - like Jmarz said - Ituziel being bad for melee largely comes down to strategy choice. That's not something Trion can control.

    Akylios was for a very long time a fight where you actually wanted to stack melee, particularly warriors with WotM and their cleaving AoE/ST rotations. Aside from a couple of ranged DPS for stinger duty (fascinating task) that fight was practically made for melee. I'm not sure it's as extreme now, but I know that melee stacking still has its benefits.

    (Just an example or two off the top of my head of how this game sticks it to ranged.)

    Honestly, it sounds like your hypothetical (or not so hypothetical) GM is not a very nice, or sensible, person. I'd put it more bluntly, but I'd undoubtedly get [Edited].

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Jmarz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyisland View Post
    I can see your point, and you're right most of it is manageable, albeit with a somewhat more unforgiving learning curve. I suppose my point is more;

    What unique or essential contribution do they make to the raid?

    Would another class do the same job better with less risk?

    Why bring warriors at all when you could stack mages or rogues?
    Their biggest contributing factor would be their ability to AoE, and they have pretty good aoe in their ST builds, they are also able to AoE on the move, other classes have to spec to pull similar AoE numbers are significant loss to their ST dps contribution.

    why bring warriors? what would we do with all that gear?!

  10. #10
    Plane Touched Jmarz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114 View Post

    On Warboss Drak, if you're a caster, you can say goodbye to DPS'ing for the first couple minutes of the fight due to Molten Rejuvenation. Melee aren't the only ones getting the short end of the stick on that fight. Depending on the strat you use, as a ranged, you also may not be DPS'ing much, if at all, when Drak himself becomes active due to contract duty.
    slightly disagree, casters just have to stop dps when molten rejuve starts to cast, and once it drops off start again. not hard to do but ive seen many a time where it will heal cuz ppl dont stop casting, so idealy only those comfortable stopping immediate should do it.

  11. #11
    Shadowlander monkeyisland's Avatar
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    I'm almost certain you are trolling me but I will answer as sincerely as I can anyway.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zyzyx View Post
    drak - need warriors cuz your mages heal the boss
    Wrong, rogues do this better with less risk.

    ituziel - warriors can suicide in front of woi
    Wrong, if you need to suicide to handle WOI you need to look at your strat

    conclave - need warriors to aoe
    Wrong, Bosses HP resets on each death, no raid deaths means no small adds, the big ones are just off-tanked they aren't meant to be killed, so this is a pure ST fight.

    rusila - need warriors to run cannon shots
    Wrong, you don't need warriors, any class can do this just as well, rogues are probably better due to the many ports/runspeed boosts.

    maklamos - need warriors to aoe
    Wrong, with competant AP mages adds live for about 10-15 seconds? Ours don't even last long enough to make it into aoe range of the boss.

    laethys - need warriors to aoe
    Adds in total make up 30 seconds of this fight, the other 9:30sec ranged dps is preferrable to stack for orbs and put out more dps while executing mechanics.

    Warrior dps is absolutely essential on most of the fights so far in ID.
    DPS warriors are in fact not needed on any fight in ID and will more likely be a liability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajax1114
    sounds like your...GM is not a very nice, or sensible, person.
    Downing cutting edge progression content is not about being nice and trying to include everyone, it is about bringing what is the best, most efficient raid composition for the encounter, and I'm struggling to find where warrior dps fits in that regard.

    Obviously I don't know as much about warriors as Zyzyx because I don't have 4000+ posts, I've only been exclusively playing Warrior DPS for a year and currently on Maelforge so please forgive my lack of understanding.

    I still fail to see a single fight in ID where you would honestly preferto bring a warrior compared to a equally skilled/geared rogue or mage.

  12. #12
    Shadowlander monkeyisland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmarz View Post
    Their biggest contributing factor would be their ability to AoE, and they have pretty good aoe in their ST builds
    This is totally right and the only obvious advantage to the warrior dps class. However in ID the only aoe that is needed to make any meaningful dps check is for about 30 seconds in total on the Laethys fight. Between Firestorm, Fan Out, and Sabs other classes can very easily fill this role anyway with virtually no loss in ranged dps during phase 2.

    Warriors shine in ID for 30 seconds and are a burden the rest of the raid night.

  13. #13
    Plane Touched Jmarz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyisland View Post
    This is totally right and the only obvious advantage to the warrior dps class. However in ID the only aoe that is needed to make any meaningful dps check is for about 30 seconds in total on the Laethys fight. Between Firestorm, Fan Out, and Sabs other classes can very easily fill this role anyway with virtually no loss in ranged dps during phase 2.

    Warriors shine in ID for 30 seconds and are a burden the rest of the raid night.
    i think your being too harsh on warriors, and that 30 seconds is essential on laethys and honestly would NOT get done in due time without warrior aoe, there would be too much sacrifice from the other classes with their ST dps to compensate. you also have to include maelforge, youve only seen part of the fight, so you dont know what else is to come. also from what i have seen, warrior dps > rogue dps ST. hardly a burden imo, unless said warrior is bad and constantly dies. if the adds on maklamos die before getting to cleave range for you, either your dps is doing something right, or your tanks are doing something wrong. one thing i noticed that hasnt been mentioned is buffs/debuffs. i dont know to what extent there is but i beleive a BeastMaster brings something significant to the table.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyisland View Post
    I'm almost certain you are trolling me but I will answer as sincerely as I can anyway.




    Wrong, rogues do this better with less risk.



    Wrong, if you need to suicide to handle WOI you need to look at your strat



    Wrong, Bosses HP resets on each death, no raid deaths means no small adds, the big ones are just off-tanked they aren't meant to be killed, so this is a pure ST fight.



    Wrong, you don't need warriors, any class can do this just as well, rogues are probably better due to the many ports/runspeed boosts.



    Wrong, with competant AP mages adds live for about 10-15 seconds? Ours don't even last long enough to make it into aoe range of the boss.



    Adds in total make up 30 seconds of this fight, the other 9:30sec ranged dps is preferrable to stack for orbs and put out more dps while executing mechanics.



    DPS warriors are in fact not needed on any fight in ID and will more likely be a liability.



    Downing cutting edge progression content is not about being nice and trying to include everyone, it is about bringing what is the best, most efficient raid composition for the encounter, and I'm struggling to find where warrior dps fits in that regard.

    Obviously I don't know as much about warriors as Zyzyx because I don't have 4000+ posts, I've only been exclusively playing Warrior DPS for a year and currently on Maelforge so please forgive my lack of understanding.

    I still fail to see a single fight in ID where you would honestly preferto bring a warrior compared to a equally skilled/geared rogue or mage.
    Didn't you know? Your post count is directly tied to your skill in the game.

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  15. #15
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    To be honest with you just stick around for a couple of months cause during HK progression I felt Like a absolute liability to my raid as a ROGUE due their ****ty dps compared to a WAR at that time and also the the inability to get an advantage in any fight.

    1.Murdantix melee overkill lol
    2.Matron again can just stack melee and War interupts and aoe is essential
    3.Zilas need a good combination of melee and aoe dps. Could just use 20 clerics lol
    4.Sicaron - WARS no advantage or disadvantage before the war ability changes
    5.Gurg - WAR power
    6.King and Prince - could just stack rogues and mages and not see a difference
    7.Estrode - WAR Nightmare
    8.Inqi - Again could just stack rogues and mages.
    9.garu - samething
    10.AKy - Essential for progression on that fight really before the wave nerf

    So out of 10 fights in 5 of them a war is essential.

    As a rogue they could have replaced me with a mage or cleric for almost all the fights and not see a difference. Only needed in AKy really but a war could easily do the job as well.

    So there, Other classes had their frustrations as well during progression.

    I would just wait it out and enjoy the game. Free DKP lol watch a movie, do some other work and just get free gear during farming :P.

    Or Learn to TANK and run ALTRAIDS or PUGS :P . Cause everyone loves WAR tanks

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