Warrior DPS, a useless liability in raids.

[InflatablePanda]

hmm.. Make flamespear hit around 20% less than PS, make a new spear 4points in, does same damage as PS, these two spears are on a 4s cooldown.. Bladefury now AOEs off of your current target. (if you have nothing selected aoes off of you). Now can ranged dps, will lose dps in range, but can be worth something. oh yeah and give spears a range over that of ranged mechanics, in which defeats the purpose of being in ranged when the mechanic would hit you anyway.

[Gynxz]

I'm almost certain you are trolling me but I will answer as sincerely as I can anyway.


Wrong, rogues do this better with less risk.
Have you tried getting 12 Rogues in raid? Physical dps (rogue or war) is best

Wrong, if you need to suicide to handle WOI you need to look at your strat
Not the best... agree but, depending on RNG warrs loose a lot less dps than mages moving. Good war> good Mage on bad rng

Wrong, Bosses HP resets on each death, no raid deaths means no small adds, the big ones are just off-tanked they aren't meant to be killed, so this is a pure ST fight.
LOL learn fight mechanics. Warrs Can Cleave MCs if pulled by Tank to melee (thats the AoE). "But sabs are better" yeah to destroy the raid if they get MC. They are a higher risk

Wrong, you don't need warriors, any class can do this just as well, rogues are probably better due to the many ports/runspeed boosts.
L2Rogue. Pors are Horrible for most fights. In a fight like Rusila, try a spec that needs to be on the back of the target and forces you to port every 9 secs while avoiding saws (that require perfect positioning). So yeah, awesome runners then dead on p2. For ports you have 3 options: #1 BS=horrible for p2, #2 Rogue tank=lol as a runner #3 0 point soul in RS for Shadow Shift every 45 secs L o L

Wrong, with competant AP mages adds live for about 10-15 seconds? Ours don't even last long enough to make it into aoe range of the boss.
So your argument is "warrs are bad because they can only cleave for a short duration"? We kill him stacking in melee range which is perfect for warriors. Killed him every week stacking (while doing beam mechanics and soaking orb damage)

Adds in total make up 30 seconds of this fight, the other 9:30sec ranged dps is preferrable to stack for orbs and put out more dps while executing mechanics.

Same as before "warrs are bad because they cant cleave for more than 30 secs?" there's no down side to having a warr in Laethys and again, they dont loose dps by moving away from orbs as mages do.


Obviously I don't know as much about warriors as Zyzyx because I don't have 4000+ posts, I've only been exclusively playing Warrior DPS for a year and currently on Maelforge so please forgive my lack of understanding.
Sad to hear that progression still have spots for narrow minded individuals. Watching the quality of your arguments...Im glad you only have 11 posts. Sorry to hear that you only had a few battles to fight. Some of us had to post more often to defend bigger problems that "warrs can only cleave for 30 secs in Laethys"

I wont argue that warriors have it easy in ID. Melee (the position not the warr class) is challenging in some encounters, specially in progression but from that to useless? That does say a lot about YOUR utility in a raid.

I might feel a little sadness for you when progression raids only take 2 warriors and FORCE them to play support because they are not needed for anything but Interrupts on Aky, king and purges on Sic. When I did Aky, we had me as MM and the Bard/BD interupting. Just 2 rogues out of 20 players. So when you only see 2 red names in the raid, let me know. If Im not energy starved I'll use some to help your cause.

[Durango]

Warboss Drak:

Anti-melee mechanic (giant red circle) that cannot possibly be escaped in time, requiring us to do sub-par ranged dps for much of the fight. We can't even aoe because the adds will just respawn and we may hit sheep.

Our warriors do this fight without any issue what so ever.

Ituziel:

Fire waves and risk of cleave limit our ability to put out anywhere near competitive dps compared to rogues and mages who only need to take about 10 steps the entire fight.

Warriors do competitive DPS with all bug the best mages on this fight.

Maklamos:

In it's current broken state this is probably the best fight for warriors.

Even in its unbroken state, warriors did fine on this fight.

Ember Conclave:

No benefit to warriors, aoe is pointless since the bosses health will reset with each death. Additional melee simply make crystal placement harder as your raid cannot stack in the same place. During the last phase we cannot do any dps at all since we are required to be at ranged, often further than 20m.

2 of the 3 orders are bad for melee, the other is very good for melee.

Rusilia:

Not a huge difference on this one, other than that we need to move out of melee for Thousand Cuts thereby lowering our already meagre dps.

Rusilia is at best a push all around. There are plenty of things ranged has to worry about. and you are bad if you need to move for thousand cuts.

Laethys:

The original Laethys fight had orbs that would simply kill you for being melee. The only way to deal with these was to run off and try to die alone. AOE'ing the adds would be good if it wasn't such a tiny part of the fight, you get two add spawns that all die in about 10-15 seconds, so warriors are useful for about 30 seconds of a 10 minute fight. The rest of the time the amount of movement/disconnet required again make it impossble to put out competitive dps.

eh? Warriors are great on this fight. highest burst AoE dps in the game and very little mechanic issues.

Eggs:

I had to leave for P2 of the encounter but as a melee it is virtually impossible to dodge waves, you can't see them until they are almost on top of you since his hitbox requires you to be almost standing inside him. If you try to turn your camera around to see waves you can't see anything except Maelforge's enormous model. I suppose we could do the camera distance mod but is this really what was intended?

dodging waves is relatively easy. don't know why you think its harder for melee with generally longer time to hit for the waves and plenty of room to move around. Also warriors are key in P2.

Maelforge:

Perhaps the greatest insult of all for melee in ID, a boss that we can't actually hit. There is one platform for the tank that he is constantly cleaving/breathing on, the other platform is for ranged dps only and we get to throw Flamespears and generally be useless.

not going to comment on this one until it is dead and videos are released for obvious reasons.

[Mayi]

Trion, as someone who has killed all your raid content up to Maelforge which we are currently working on, I feel that melee dps is often neglected and sometimes downright punished just for being in raid, it makes guild leaders not want to bring us and we lose interest in the game.

I agree.

Our warriors do this fight without any issue what so ever.
Warriors do competitive DPS with all bug the best mages on this fight.
Even in its unbroken state, warriors did fine on this fight.
2 of the 3 orders are bad for melee, the other is very good for melee.
Rusilia is at best a push all around. There are plenty of things ranged has to worry about. and you are bad if you need to move for thousand cuts.
eh? Warriors are great on this fight. highest burst AoE dps in the game and very little mechanic issues.
dodging waves is relatively easy. don't know why you think its harder for melee with generally longer time to hit for the waves and plenty of room to move around. Also warriors are key in P2.
not going to comment on this one until it is dead and videos are released for obvious reasons.

Our warriors are all max PA and one has the scyth but still don't reach rogue dps. Consistent pattern on every fight is mages > rogues > warriors. Are your warriors running some secret spec? The only fight they're top is Maklamos.

On Ituziel looking at top parses in our guild:
4500 - mage
4300 - rogue
4100 - warrior

Trion did a derp here imo. In the zone that was melee friendly warriors had the best dps (HK) and were blowing everyone out of the water. Then they adjust warriors to competitive dps with everyone else and then add tons of melee disconnects in ID so now they can't compete.

[Kaybriar]

Was waiting for a thread like this to pop up and to be honest the OP is completely correct. If what he says is correct on Maellforge (we are still on Laethys) then it is pretty much inexcusable from Trion.

Hell our guild used to run 5 per class in HK for balance, and we are lucky if they bring 3 warriors in for ID progression (and that includes a warrior tank).

I can't fathom what Trion was thinking in dungeon design when a class is actually punished and it is better to sit them out solely because they are melee dps.

[gfiz]

my guess OP, is you are trying running the same spec as a warrior through all the fights? That would be mistake #1. Haven't seen maelforge yet, so that may make me cry, but pretty much feel competitive on every fight. Do we have it harder and less room for mistakes and need to be generally more competent? Yes, can't disagree with you there. Can you still be competitive and contribute on dps? Absolutely.

[mistacrowley420]

Exceptional warriors keep their raid spots because they are always competitive, others won't. That being said melee gets the short end of the stick 90% of the time, I want to see a mechanic that punishes somebody for being range.

[Sebb]

Conclave.... Nobody mentioned conflagration on tank? Being able to handle mechanics vs having to deal with extra ones are two different arguments. Any fight which involves spreading out generally sucks for warrior dps (mak/Drak).

ID is melee unfriendly, but they did a better job of avoiding mechanics that specifically hurt melee stack, like matron AOE and Vlsd flames.

OP has a point. I suggest rogues spend next raid in melee and compare your dps result.

[Kaybriar]

my guess OP, is you are trying running the same spec as a warrior through all the fights? That would be mistake #1. Haven't seen maelforge yet, so that may make me cry, but pretty much feel competitive on every fight. Do we have it harder and less room for mistakes and need to be generally more competent? Yes, can't disagree with you there. Can you still be competitive and contribute on dps? Absolutely.

I have 4 war dps specs with all 4 crystals. I run whichever is the best spec and which benefits the raid the most on each fight in ID. I have full PAs, a scythe, and put out competitive dps against other world top warriors.

If you really think our dps is competitive compared to other callings in the meta of risk vs. reward in ID then maybe your other classes are underperforming. The ONLY thing we excel at is putting out solid ST and AOE dps in the same spec.

If this continues to only be useful on 2/8 fights in ID then warriors will continue to sit out 6/8 fights in ID.

I really want to know what TRION was thinking to be honest.

[Durango]

Our warriors are all max PA and one has the scyth but still don't reach rogue dps. Consistent pattern on every fight is mages > rogues > warriors. Are your warriors running some secret spec? The only fight they're top is Maklamos.

They are competitive on almost all the fights with the exception of HC.

Trion did a derp here imo. In the zone that was melee friendly warriors had the best dps (HK) and were blowing everyone out of the water. Then they adjust warriors to competitive dps with everyone else and then add tons of melee disconnects in ID so now they can't compete.

They do just fine in ID with the exception of lolmode conclave.

[Mayi]

Exceptional warriors keep their raid spots because they are always competitive, others won't. That being said melee gets the short end of the stick 90% of the time, I want to see a mechanic that punishes somebody for being range.

Akylios /10char

[Kaybriar]

They are competitive on almost all the fights with the exception of HC.



They do just fine in ID with the exception of lolmode conclave.

Being competitive is irrelevant if the risk vs. reward is such that a ranged class can do the job just as well with less risk. I don't think you are quite understanding.

[Durango]

If this continues to only be useful on 2/8 fights in ID then warriors will continue to sit out 6/8 fights in ID.

Warriors are useful on every fight except lolmode conclave.

Drak? extremely useful
Mak? extremely useful
Rusilia? extremely useful
Lathys? extremely useful
eggs? extremely useful
ituziel? useful

only fight they really have issue in that most people have seen is lolmode conclave. They also happen to be the preferred tank in all but 1 off tank role in 1 encounter.

[mistacrowley420]

They are competitive on almost all the fights with the exception of HC.



They do just fine in ID with the exception of lolmode conclave.

You said warriors could raid heal, your opinion is invalid.

[Kaybriar]

Mage, Rogue, and Cleric dps are alll useful on every fight in ID but with less risk on the majority of fights

Drak? extremely useful
Mak? extremely useful
Rusilia? extremely useful
Lathys? extremely useful
eggs? extremely useful
ituziel? extremely useful

See what I did there?