Warrior DPS, a useless liability in raids.

[RoughRaptors]

Saying you are a top ten world guild is like saying I can tank Plutonus. Everyone knows it's not true and is meaningless.

[RoughRaptors]

I should probably use the world "silly" instead of "not true"

[LockedOn666]

but grubs are top 10, for real.

guardians have had many disbands. ;)

[Carinae]

I was thinking about this after some more attempts on Ituziel. As it currently, in most single target fights warriors are a liability. Consider the following thought exercise, if you could replace a warrior with a different class of equal skill and gear would you.

Drak -- Probably, maybe leave 1-2 warriors.
Ituziel -- Definitely
Mak -- No. We have everyone stack an a ranged tank for orbs, so no movement, and all melee.

Looking at the bigger picture, warriors need a dedicated ST spec with approximately +10% more ST damage than current. In an AoE situation, the extra DPS is great and balanced by the melee penalty. For ST, warriors are balanced against a target dummy, but mechanics cause them to quickly fall behind.

[Sebb]

In the end, as mista says, good warriors stay competitive (flame wave? Honey badger don't give a ****!!), and good raid leads know how to use their warriors well.

ID is generally not melee friendly though. Ask yourself, if you could choose between range or melee, which would you want on each fight. Or just give warriors a full range dps option that is competitive and we will let the population decide naturally.

[Acanis]

In the end, as mista says, good warriors stay competitive (flame wave? Honey badger don't give a ****!!), and good raid leads know how to use their warriors well.

ID is generally not melee friendly though. Ask yourself, if you could choose between range or melee, which would you want on each fight. Or just give warriors a full range dps option that is competitive and we will let the population decide naturally.

Pretty much this. Melee is doable in any fight so long as they know what they are doing, but with skill being equal, i'd take a range over melee on the majority of the fights any day of the week.

And lazor, get some better trolling. Your failing miserably and the only person laughing at your trolling is you.

[Zahne]

The fact alone this has been at the top every time I've looked at it for 2 days tells me that regardless of what people may or may not think, it's a hot enough issue that people feel strongly about one side or another.

It reaks of bad world design that it would even be a hot topic of discussion that 1 of 4 possible classes may be a liability in a top tier zone. If you ask me, a good simple fix is to give Warriors a solid ranged spec.

I'd be happy even if that ranged spec was behind the current ranged classes. But then again, it should be on par with the ranged classes. That's how we're doing things these days right? Normalization?

[MRFabulouss]

As a side note we did akylios progression with 1 warrior in raid sometimes 2 none as tanks and we have been killing him for months. Not only was warrior DPS not needed in Hk its not needed in ID for the same reasons

Any class can do what we do, as well or better w/ less risk(other then BM buff we do that the best)

The only case ive seen on all the forums is something like you need it for 30 seconds on laythis (so far).

[Gynxz]

As a side note we did akylios progression with 1 warrior in raid sometimes 2 none as tanks and we have been killing him for months. Not only was warrior DPS not needed in Hk its not needed in ID for the same reasons

Any class can do what we do, as well or better w/ less risk(other then BM buff we do that the best)

The only case ive seen on all the forums is something like you need it for 30 seconds on laythis (so far).

For "months" like in before wave nerf, Item stats boosted, sab made viable or after? If Its AFTER, your argument is invalid.

[faxE]

trion just make flamespear have no cd in PVE only
that way specs that are not dw can have some decent- ranged dps

its not a solution but its a pretty good band aid if you ask me

[Vioarr]

On topic, no comment. I'll stick to the occasional brief venting in TS on this one.

dark phoenix....they are a top guild....obviously. vioarr will vouch for that.

Que?

[MoonfireSpam]

The fact alone this has been at the top every time I've looked at it for 2 days tells me that regardless of what people may or may not think, it's a hot enough issue that people feel strongly about one side or another.

It reaks of bad world design that it would even be a hot topic of discussion that 1 of 4 possible classes may be a liability in a top tier zone. If you ask me, a good simple fix is to give Warriors a solid ranged spec.

I'd be happy even if that ranged spec was behind the current ranged classes. But then again, it should be on par with the ranged classes. That's how we're doing things these days right? Normalization?

Once upon a time, warriors had a somewhat viable ranged dps spec.

Then it got washed away in a cascade of tears about plate wearing, shield toting 10k hp warriors doing as much as, if not more, ranged dps in pvp than actual ranged classes with less hp and without the option to block.

And now they don't.

I suppose if you're really looking to solve it... there's one of two options.

You can either make the skills work differently in PvP and PvE (which is a programming nightmare in the case of PvPvE stuff like world pvp and scion.)

Or you'd have to design mechanics that are equally punishing for melee and ranged... which is easy to say, but lol... I wouldn't want to be the guy who has to make an entire raid zone equally punishing to both.

... though I guess a third option would be to bump their dps up half a notch and just call it a day... and ignore the people qq'ing about how every class ought to do equal dps.

[Hrimnir]

Ive actually been making the OP's argument since a couple months after release. If you look at literally all of the boss fights in the game it pans out that 85% or better melee DPS, (not neccesarily warrior melee, but melee DPS) either has it A. Worse off, or B.Equal/roughly equal to ranged.

When i say all of the boss fights i mean all of the raids, all of the dungeons, etc.

I've always felt that Trion either hated Melee DPS or at least had a shield of apathy when it came to our plight. Personally i'm not really surprised though, Warriors are always the least thought of least looked at class in any MMO. They're the class everyone expects to be there and always end up the most generic and underdeveloped because of that.'

The sad part is that most of the people in this forum who don't get it need to understand that at is very core, very base, the issue is this:

All other things considered equal, would you rather have a ranged DPS or a warrior melee dps...

In almost all situations the answer is a resounding, yes pls, give me the ranged dps.

[Methadras]

So (as you can see from my post count) I very rarely post, however I do read and play a lot. I generally keep my opinions and criticism to myself however since I will likely unsub over this issue I figured I may as well put my thoughts up before I peace out (no you can't have my stuff).

Trion, as someone who has killed all your raid content up to Maelforge which we are currently working on, I feel that melee dps is often neglected and sometimes downright punished just for being in raid, it makes guild leaders not want to bring us and we lose interest in the game. It is not fun to die repeatedly for no other reason than you chose warrior class.

I don't mind the odd anti-melee mechanic to keep us on our toes, however there should be a trade-off and one or two fights where we are actually superior to other classes. Ideally our single target dps in a standstill fight would be higher than any other class, balanced by the fact that we are heavily punished for any kind of movement/disconnect. This is not the case, mages and rogues can easily out dps warriors from 30m away. Currently our only real advantage is that our ST and AOE dps is contained within the same spec, however there is no fight in the current Infernal Dawn raid that actually requires this other then perhaps Laethys. Allow me to illustrate with some examples.

Warboss Drak:

Anti-melee mechanic (giant red circle) that cannot possibly be escaped in time, requiring us to do sub-par ranged dps for much of the fight. We can't even aoe because the adds will just respawn and we may hit sheep.

Ituziel:

Fire waves and risk of cleave limit our ability to put out anywhere near competitive dps compared to rogues and mages who only need to take about 10 steps the entire fight.

Maklamos:

In it's current broken state this is probably the best fight for warriors.

Ember Conclave:

No benefit to warriors, aoe is pointless since the bosses health will reset with each death. Additional melee simply make crystal placement harder as your raid cannot stack in the same place. During the last phase we cannot do any dps at all since we are required to be at ranged, often further than 20m.

Rusilia:

Not a huge difference on this one, other than that we need to move out of melee for Thousand Cuts thereby lowering our already meagre dps.

Laethys:

The original Laethys fight had orbs that would simply kill you for being melee. The only way to deal with these was to run off and try to die alone. AOE'ing the adds would be good if it wasn't such a tiny part of the fight, you get two add spawns that all die in about 10-15 seconds, so warriors are useful for about 30 seconds of a 10 minute fight. The rest of the time the amount of movement/disconnet required again make it impossble to put out competitive dps.

Eggs:

I had to leave for P2 of the encounter but as a melee it is virtually impossible to dodge waves, you can't see them until they are almost on top of you since his hitbox requires you to be almost standing inside him. If you try to turn your camera around to see waves you can't see anything except Maelforge's enormous model. I suppose we could do the camera distance mod but is this really what was intended?

Maelforge:

Perhaps the greatest insult of all for melee in ID, a boss that we can't actually hit. There is one platform for the tank that he is constantly cleaving/breathing on, the other platform is for ranged dps only and we get to throw Flamespears and generally be useless.


TLDR: Being a melee warrior is ID is a total joke, you bring less utility than rogues and mages, you can't heal or support like every other class can and your dps isn't even any better for it. You will die more often and effectively become a burden for the rest of your raid to deal with. Ultimately your GM will stop inviting you if you don't get the hint and drop yourself voluntarily.

So long and thanks for all the fish.

I feel redeemed.

[Zahne]

... though I guess a third option would be to bump their dps up half a notch and just call it a day... and ignore the people qq'ing about how every class ought to do equal dps.

I personally don't think everyone should do equal DPS, but I tire of the one-way street balance seems to take. Everyone is constantly being brought in-line with Warriors, but why isn't there more focus on bringing Warriors in-line with everyone else?

I frankly don't want a healing spec, and I don't care for a support spec. I just want to feel like I bring enough value to justify my class taking up 25% of the raid. I think each class really deserves as much.

Things aren't in terrible shape imho, but they certainly need some improvement.