What is "Challenging"

[Plavem]

There as been a quite a bit of talk about how easy I.D. is, how Trion really dropped the ball. Honestly I think it is you the community who has dropped the ball.

I remember when I used to be like the people in Voodoo. Yeah I was playing Everquest, back then they didn't have instances everything was open world. You didn't have set hours to raid. You formed up and raided when a mob spawned, or you had a treaty with other guilds on the server with who you set up a rotation with.

I remember when we got world first on lady vox. We went at it for hours. And more hours. And more hours. But you see back then we didn't have an emote telling us what was about to happen. We had to figure everything out on our own. We had stop watches telling us when aoe's would go off. We also had to work together. After it was all said and done and the boss went down there was no loot. The devs created a boss they didn't think could be killed and the player base killed it. This would be the start of competition in MMOs.

Now days you have 20 man raids. There is only so much you can do with 20 people. How hard is it to lead 20 people. I remember in EQ1 we had HUGE RAIDS without vent mumble or team speak and you had to type instructions.

Then you slap an enrage timer on that mob. Give it a few mechanics. And really expect it to be hard? These mobs aren't hard. Dodging a mechanic is not hard. Once you learn all of the mechanics its even easier. But wait, now you want to complain because as soon as Infernal Dawn comes out you zerg it for countless hours and then want to say how easy it is? Not to mention some of you tested it which even adds to the time spent on a said boss.

Now some may say that they are the best at their class they pull the top numbers. Cooties to you bro? I heard its really hard to set up a macro and figure out a rotation? Whats that you say no one can duplicate your numbers? Yeah, because you have access to that information. Ever stop to think not everyone is a show boat like you. That other people are proud and know they are good they don't have to come here to the forums to prove it?

Fun isn't making a boss challenging. Its not even making a boss hard. Fun is learning a new mechanic or group of mechanics. Then taking these group of mechanics making sense of them then executing. Take Ituzial or however you spell it for example. Hes not hard. He just makes sure the healers know what they are doing. That is not hard. Its more frustrating than anything. Its idiotic to tune a mob so fine that if a healer sneezes you could lose the main tank. But, what is fun is the tank swap. Fine tuning a tank swap to where dps doesn't need to move, to maintain up time. Dodging waves is fun. This is what the game is all about, fun.

The last boss of HK was fun because of the mechanics. The tanks didn't take an unhealable amount of damage. Though the fight wasn't easy, it wasn't hard because you had to worry about every mistake made. It was hard because some SOME mistakes would cost you a player. But once you made it through all of the phases, learned all of the mechanics, it became a masterpiece, every person being a tool of a finally tuned machine.

You may or may not argue. It doesn't matter honestly. But, if you take the number of guilds that have cleared all current content versus the number of guilds that haven't its obviously not "easy". Not to mention most of the content out right now was broken. Some of the guilds that killed the broken mobs are going to be wiping for hours now.

Casual doesn't mean you are bad, hardcore doesn't mean you are good. Casual simply means you can't sacrifice the time to play as much as you want. Hardcore means you sacrifice the important things in life to be something in the world.

[Sariina]

. . . and yet as of right now only about 560 people are 5/8 in ID.

You would think if Rift even has 100K people playing that more than 0.5% of the population would be done it by now if it were easy.

[Focusv5]

i'm sorry what was the point of this thread?

[Primalthirst]

I believe the point the OP is trying to make is that it isn't putting out optimal HPS or DPS numbers that is fun. It's the process of learning and understanding mechanics and then working within the constraints of those mechanics to kill a boss that makes encounters enjoyable.

I think the majority of people would agree that perfectly completing mechanics is more enjoyable than running a perfect rotation against a target dummy with additional hp.

[Plavem]

i'm sorry what was the point of this thread?

I think the point is clear. If you don't get it then why bother responding?

[TheGrinnz]

i'm sorry what was the point of this thread?

I'm pretty sure it was that remark about some guilds getting to test the ID bosses

[Iamafk]

Were you in Harmonium by chance?

[Byona]

Is he mad cuz bad? or bad cuz mad?

[Bluelightt]

Using EQ, especially original EQ, as an example of something difficult was really a poor choice. Pretty much all open world mobs had minimal mechanics and the hardest part was setting up a CH rotation and healing through some minor aoe's. Larger raids also meant less personal responsibility and no DPS checks meant that DPS didn't really have to do their job well to be successful, it was just about keeping the tanks alive and thats all that mattered. By the way figuring out AE's in EQ was as easy as 1) /log on, 2) after 1 attempt search through said log for a spell, 3) note the time, 4) use a stop watch and hotkeys to call it out. Or later on they had Gamparse and it did all this for you.

Today's raids, when tuned correctly, require all types of classes to play well and have situational awareness at the same time which makes for more enjoyable encounters. The fact that everyone can be held responsible for the raids success and failure is what makes them enjoyable, at least to me ;)

Also, trying to generalize what is fun to everyone isn't going to work. What you described may be fun to you. However, fun to other people is an encounter that is very difficult and takes days upon days of attempts to figure everything out and then requires perfect execution from everyone in the raid to win. Most memorable raid wins in MMO's to me were always the ones that took a long time to conquer and got the nerd adrenaline flowing when we won.

[Primalthirst]

Also, trying to generalize what is fun to everyone isn't going to work. What you described may be fun to you. However, fun to other people is an encounter that is very difficult and takes days upon days of attempts to figure everything out and then requires perfect execution from everyone in the raid to win. Most memorable raid wins in MMO's to me were always the ones that took a long time to conquer and got the nerd adrenaline flowing when we won.

Good encounters have both complex and interesting mechanics as well as well tuned dps/tanking/healing checks.

But I feel that most people when given a choice between a fight with no real mechanics and a tight performance checks and a fight with great mechanics and easy performance checks, most players would pick the mechanical fight.

[Bluelightt]

Good encounters have both complex and interesting mechanics as well as well tuned dps/tanking/healing checks.

But I feel that most people when given a choice between a fight with no real mechanics and a tight performance checks and a fight with great mechanics and easy performance checks, most players would pick the mechanical fight.

My point, in case it wasn't clear, was that there should be both. Not just good mechanics you have to follow or a fight that is a target dummy.

[Gyle]

I remember when I used to be like the people in Voodoo. Yeah I was playing Everquest, back then they didn't have instances everything was open world. You didn't have set hours to raid. You formed up and raided when a mob spawned, or you had a treaty with other guilds on the server with who you set up a rotation with.

I remember when we got world first on lady vox.

Man, if i had a nickel for every person that claims to have been in on a world first Naggy/Vox kill....

Now days you have 20 man raids. There is only so much you can do with 20 people. How hard is it to lead 20 people. I remember in EQ1 we had HUGE RAIDS without vent mumble or team speak and you had to type instructions.

Then you slap an enrage timer on that mob. Give it a few mechanics. And really expect it to be hard? These mobs aren't hard. Dodging a mechanic is not hard. Once you learn all of the mechanics its even easier. But wait, now you want to complain because as soon as Infernal Dawn comes out you zerg it for countless hours and then want to say how easy it is? Not to mention some of you tested it which even adds to the time spent on a said boss.

First of all, you can't zerg a damn thing with 20 people. The term zerg (a Starcraft reference for those that don't know) applies to the idea of using a vastly overwhelming force to defeat something. As an example, the world first Naggy and Vox kills were Zergs, hell FoH bind rushed Naggy for like hours straight. Uber skillz.

Secondly, how could enrage timers, raid size limits, and actual mechanics (something Vox did not have) make mobs easier?

Using EQ, especially original EQ, as an example of something difficult was really a poor choice. Pretty much all open world mobs had minimal mechanics and the hardest part was setting up a CH rotation and healing through some minor aoe's. Larger raids also meant less personal responsibility and no DPS checks meant that DPS didn't really have to do their job well to be successful, it was just about keeping the tanks alive and thats all that mattered. By the way figuring out AE's in EQ was as easy as 1) /log on, 2) after 1 attempt search through said log for a spell, 3) note the time, 4) use a stop watch and hotkeys to call it out. Or later on they had Gamparse and it did all this for you.

Today's raids, when tuned correctly, require all types of classes to play well and have situational awareness at the same time which makes for more enjoyable encounters. The fact that everyone can be held responsible for the raids success and failure is what makes them enjoyable, at least to me ;)

Also, trying to generalize what is fun to everyone isn't going to work. What you described may be fun to you. However, fun to other people is an encounter that is very difficult and takes days upon days of attempts to figure everything out and then requires perfect execution from everyone in the raid to win. Most memorable raid wins in MMO's to me were always the ones that took a long time to conquer and got the nerd adrenaline flowing when we won.

This guy has the right idea. Though TBH Rusila now that she is working correctly is tuned about right, and if they could get Scryer to work correctly just once for anybody at all we might have some idea how that fight is actually tuned. They also seem to have ninja-upped the damage a bit on Ituzial, which was a welcome change. Now if only Conclave Hard Mode wasn't like the easiest encounter after Drak.


The fact is that serious raiders threw a temper tantrum and Trion made changes immediately, and will probably make a few more over the next few weeks to tune up the encounters ever so slightly. Cry all you want but we were right and Trion knows it. ID will not be as hard as HK no matter what they do most likely, but that's not what we are asking for.


We just want something worth our time, and Trion will do everything they can to strike a balance between us and the casual crowd. They don't want to lose either one because they, unlike you and many like you, understand that this game can not survive without both groups.

[istrikeanywhere]

First of all, you can't zerg a damn thing with 20 people. The term zerg (a Starcraft reference for those that don't know) applies to the idea of using a vastly overwhelming force to defeat something. As an example, the world first Naggy and Vox kills were Zergs, hell FoH bind rushed Naggy for like hours straight. Uber skillz.

also a refrence from ffxi .. there was the same as eq we didnt have raid times we just waited 24 hours for a mob to pop then zerged it down with 12 people. no vent or mumble.

I remember trying to kill absolute virtue for 2 days straight with 4 other linkshells. we would take breaks swapping members in and etc. was a nightmare haha