A raider's case against PAs

[ClericRet]

If there were no stats or raid enhancing PAs there would not be an issue. That is pretty much the concern in a nutshell. Then people could say "Ah this is extra!" without thinking "Ah I have to login and farm tonight in order to feel competitive in a raiding environment."

You just need to get out of the mentality that dps is somehow a measure of your worth as a person. Thats the only reason you are *****ing... because there are people in your guild that have more PAs and so they do 20-30 more dps and you don't feel like you can compete.

Get over yourself man, you only speak for maybe 10% of raiders.

You wanna be on top? Work for it.

[Gray]

I also know that if things did change (as in, PA going account wide) it would not harm you one bit...

personal stance doesn't matter here imho, because wanting PA to be account wide is just shortsighted.
in case it gets accountwide:
- trion will nerf the rewards -> people will complain
- trion will keep the rewards but ups the required exp -> people will complain
- (unlikely) trion does nothing, people cap PA way faster than originally intended -> people will complain there is no advancement anymore

PA was first and foremost a system to have some form of character advancement, no matter what you do. that system has to offer rewards as an incentive, but the rewards can't be too good, else people feel the need to grind for it. from this perspective complaining about PA is a logical as whining about levels and the XP system (waaah, other people only let me do experts/raids at lvl 50, other people can level faster than me because there's no weekly cap, xp only works for one char - basically all the complains in a nutshell).

the current system isn't perfect, but it will never be perfect for everybody anyway considering how many different playstyles are in the game.

the biggest problem of PA is that some people's perception of it is completely screwed. making big changes to PA might shut them up for now, but once the next progress based system appears (which will, MMOs are all about progress to keep people subbed), the whining will start anew.

you can't fix stupid *shrug*

[Anuhart]

But the difference is, I know your stance.

I also know that if things did change (as in, PA going account wide) it would not harm you one bit... so you opposing it just means you have no regard for the time it takes to complete raids and would rather stick it to the raiders instead.

Check every 'account wide PA' thread, you will see me say the same thing, why it WILL AFFECT me.

PA encourages me to play alts, I like the fact that they have completely separate PA journeys.

I want to have separate PA, removing that would then adversely affect me.

[LOveRH]

I pretty much laugh at any raider who thinks PA lvls is a signification upgrade to the point where people get upset about it.
You guys need to really just see how much you gain from the trees... trust me its not much at all. The only people who can complain are the ones in hardcore raiding guilds, with all relics and min/maxing to the extreme. Other than that 40-100 SP/AP will mean nothing to you when your in a raid.

That is absolutely absurd to say that PA grinding forces you away from having fun on other characters. It all your choice not to work on your alts and instead you blame it all on the PA system? Really? That is like saying after you wiped 30 times on a HK boss and have to get better gear to blame it on Trion because of the fact that now you have to spend more time on your main to gear up more till you can successfully down the boss.
You guys are just overly obsessed when you look at the trees and stuff you can't have till you work at it. There is no rush to get maxed out at all because the gain is so insignificant its almost funny. I have 400 lvls right now and i gain like 80-90 SP (counting SP from the INT/WIS gain). That is a ratio of 1 sp per 4.7 lvls. Is that really something to cry about? I didn't even TRY to grind out, it just came from raiding and doing experts with my friends/guildies.

The developers even said THEMSELVES that they will not allow PA to affect raiding/PvE which it doesn't. It only suppose to be a little reward players for continuing to quest and raid for exp on their max character. Guilds who have PA requirements for recruitment is about the most hilarious thing i even heard. Unless your Voodoo or Maxamation there is no reason to put a PA requirement unless they are just looking for how much time you invested on your character.

[Unhurtable]

My view is shortsighted by design since it is looking at things from the viewpoint of a raider. Hence the title of this thread "A raider's case against PAs".



What?! Where is the logic here? Just because something has no end that means no one feels like they need to complete it? WTF.. Do you NOT understand that PAs give you ~20% to your stats and ~30-40% more HP (some of this is apparent HP from resists). These stats are insane bonuses to raiding, anyone that doesn't want them is either not a raider, or someone that doesn't understand the huge benefits you can from having max PA. Also, if anything no end in sight only causes people to become demoralized, not cause them to just not care.

TWENTY PERCENT TO YOUR MAIN STATS IS HUGE. THIS IS LIKE YOU DE-EQUIPING 2-3 PIECES OF ARMOR.

Would you raid without 2-3 pieces of armor? Any guild I know would promptly throw you out on your ***. I think you are GROSSLY underestimating the value PAs bring to the table and also GROSSLY underestimating how these PA stats are valued by the RAIDING community. There would be no problem whatsoever if PAs gave no stats. I could care less if there was a million levels and I only had 1 and everyone around me had 999,999. The fact of the matter is these are HUGE bonuses to raiding and they compel (force) raiders to log in and engage in meaningless grinding outside of an aspect of the game they find fun. It is like if Trion started to make all of the BiS raiding gear come from PvP or collecting artifacts or some other completely non-raiding related aspect of the game.

Myself and many others DON'T WANT TO FARM PA to be competitive in a raiding environment. Don't tell me people don't feel like they need to farm PA because that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Its not 20% of my main stats.
And max PA definately doesnt give you +30-40% max health. Those are just numbers you make up.
+90 Endurance and +18 resist (in Tier 3 that is) in total. Even if 1 resist gave a +1% theoretical max health(which would be alot more than they currently give), this would barely scratch the +30% mark:
- +90 endurance means about +450 health (when a typical raider has above 5k, but lets say for the arguement that its a 10% increase
- 1.18 x 1.10 scratches the +30% mark.

Incorporating Sigils and raidbuffs, this value diminishes even further. With the same "resist to health" ratio, a good sigil will at least give +70 resist. Lets continue assuming the raider gets +10% max health from the PA Endurance alone
+ PA Endurance leaves the person at 110% Health
+ Sigil Resistance leaves the person at 187% Effective Health
+ PA Resistance leaves the person at 206.8% Effective Health (since you only add +19.8% as the PA resistance doesnt multiply from the persons Effective Health)

Whereas a person without any PA bonuses will have
+170% with Sigil

206.8 / 170 = 1.21 ==> a 21% Max Health increase against someone with NO PA WHAT SO EVER. Also, mind you that:
- Better sigils + runes on sigils means this value will get lower
- Improved gear will reduce the difference
- Raid buffs reduce the difference

Oh, and the biggest part of it:
- 1 Resist isnt equal to 1% max health increase
These 4 factors reduce the numbers substantially.

Feel free to prove me wrong. I understand the whole "need Max PA to achieve max potential" thingy, but using made up numbers only worsens your case.

[Ardor]

Dude, I have a job already.

So, what you are saying is that 10% of the raiding community is maniacally uptight about this game. The remaining 90% see the game as work.

True that.

Get over yourself man, you only speak for maybe 10% of raiders.

You wanna be on top? Work for it.

[DevinKa]

Why can't you guys think for other types of players in the game? Don't be selfish. Some people want PA, some people don't want because of raiding. Then why can't you guys think some solutions everyone could agree with? Win/Loose or Black or White is not the only answer. Win/Win or even draw could be answer too.

I posted some suggestions everyone might be able to agree with. If you guys want, I could post them here again.

Just denying others sounds really selfish and childish.

[mo0trix]

Check every 'account wide PA' thread, you will see me say the same thing, why it WILL AFFECT me.

PA encourages me to play alts, I like the fact that they have completely separate PA journeys.

I want to have separate PA, removing that would then adversely affect me.

But you're not a raider.. and if you care to look at the thread title.

Make it optional... I bet you still take the account wide exp, mainly because you're full of crap.

For others - Insignificant as it may "seem" - PA is actually a huge buff. If you fail to see that then you're really not a raider at all.

[mavfin87]

If you fail to see that then you're really not a raider at all.

You aren't a real raider, either, if you think you can't advance because of little buffs like that. You're a raider that *must have training wheels* to complete content that doesn't require PA, is what it looks like to me.

Real raiders don't need crutches or training wheels. Obviously you and others in this thread do need them.

[Anuhart]

But you're not a raider.. and if you care to look at the thread title.

Make it optional... I bet you still take the account wide exp, mainly because you're full of crap.

For others - Insignificant as it may "seem" - PA is actually a huge buff. If you fail to see that then you're really not a raider at all.

Hmm, so if I was to start a thread with non-raiders in the title, I could put in remove all raids from the game and that would mean no one who raids could object?

Note, I wouldn't do such a thing because I accept there are more than me play this game, I accept that people want raids.

PA may or may not be a huge buff, it is of no relevance, it isn't required unless you need a crutch and can't do content without it. That is not the games fault but the player who has trouble playing the game.

[mo0trix]

Note, I wouldn't do such a thing because I accept there are more than me play this game, I accept that people want raids.

That's incredibly ironic considering none of your posts take into consideration those who spend their time in raids rather than farming exp.

[Anuhart]

That's incredibly ironic considering none of your posts take into consideration those who spend their time in raids rather than farming exp.

They absolutely do, PA is not a requirement, the system as is does not affect anyone adversely unless they themselves choose to see problems which are non existent.

[Miguelvrmtz]

for warriors and rogues i´d say the PA trees are more important than for clerics and mages.

actually i´d say that warriors scale like : weapon>PA>gear so it´s pointless to say that PA is insignificant for some classes ...


on the other hand it´s true that you shouldn´t care much about PA unless you´re on a "hardcore" guild, or, in the case you are you wouldn´t mind to farm some hours per day

[Ceonnyn]

If only we could buy xp pots in a cash shop, the rest of us could catch up!

[Kostaja]

Keep your pants on min/maxers.

I've been raiding full PA set and had no probs. It's all in your mind. No one needs PA to do anything PvE related in this game :P