A raider's case against PAs

[Trehearn]

In an ever evolving game characters do not get maxed out. I'm not even caring about the unemployed who can spend all day every day grinding PA. We're not talking about gear upgrades. We're talking about a fresh character hitting 50 in the next few months. At least I have the option of sending my ISS to him for help getting his foot in the door. A brand new player wouldn't even have that.

Let me ask you one. At what point is the gap between new players and existing too large to cross realisticallty without making this a second job (which I already have) and there's plenty of competition between players for raid slots etc

a brand new 50 doesn't instantly get lvl 50 hk relic gear just for hitting lvl 50, lvl 50 with high pa, and high level gear had to work for that, they still had to work, to gear their character, as well as leveling their pa, what you very ineffectively are asking for, in a broad sense, is the very thing which everyone has been telling you that you will never get, you want instant gratification for having only a sole character, what you want, is the ability to have a main, and being able to have alternate character of equal gear/experience/stats/progression, which simple does not, and never will happen, you will not be rewarding free "maxxed" out character, nor will you be able to share character progression between character, i can't go make the flavor of the month class, level him up, and farm hk to get mage relic gear to send to my mage now can i? (nor can i get my mage hk rady, instantly transfer the gear to my mage, and thus basically swapp out my character based on which character happens to be the flavor of the month)

so, in summery, you are a silly goose who apparently lack the common logic that i believed all human possessed, please leave rift you will not be missed, (in b4 you start blabbering about how it's merely a "qaulity of life improvement" because the fact is, it is not, it's a whiney grab for instant gratification, and free shinies.

[Charlice]

No one is arguing that skill > PA. That goes without saying. but equally skilled players with more stats, resists, faster movement, and a lot more health will have a huge advantage.

And this is why I can't have a constructive discussion, because it devolves into this guy

You are not trying to have a contructive discussion. You are being incredibly rude to anyone that disagrees with you. There is a difference.

[Thorrand]

You are not trying to have a contructive discussion. You are being incredibly rude to anyone that disagrees with you. There is a difference.

Only when people feel the need to dictate how others should want to play the game. My idea changes nothing for anyone other than the person who personally decides to use it /not use it. how or why anyone would challenge that is baffling. but then again this is the rift forums...

[Petgroup]

Err, Rift lost subs most dramatically when there was NO alternative PvE advancement outside of raiding. Take it away again and you will see a repeat of that.

Clearly, that was why......

I blame communication within the class forums and bugged encounters containing Iron Tomb loot.

350,000 people didn't leave because we were missing PA's. At the same time, haivng PA's is only keeping people till May 15th and whenever April 10th's beta starts.

Multiple games + Summertime = 100k by July 4th.

[Caydin]

The reason why people left in the past is almost totally irrelevant to this discussion. Everyone leaves for their own personal reasons. You're not going to be able to just point at one aspect of the game and say, "There, people left because Warriors got nerfed." Either the game wasn't meant for them, they disagreed with the direction Trion took, they had monetary or life issues that needed to take priority, or they simply got bored. It may be one aspect, it may be every aspect, but you won't know without asking each individual person. So speculation on the subject is useless.

I went back and reread the first topic. The case that the OP makes is that because PA isn't capped, all these issues supposedly exist. I believe that these issues are being approached from a direction that increases the amount of stress that one feels, thus reducing the amount of fun one gets from actually playing.

If PAs were capped, would these supposed issues actually resolve themselves? No, it wouldn't change a thing. Let's say that PAs were capped in a way that you could only get 10 levels a day. A new player who starts 10 months from now is still going to be 10 months behind. A guild that requires X amount of PA is still going to require that amount. And players that don't actually like making alternate characters suddenly find themselves with playtime that isn't doing anything for them.... which was the problem that PA was supposed to alleviate in the first place!

It feels odd to me to want the game to impose artificial restrictions on myself, restrictions that I could already put into place. This isn't like EXP-locking. You can't stop yourself from gaining EXP unless you don't do the content. This means that eventually you outlevel what you were intending, such as questing in a particular zone. In the case of PAs, you're wanting an artificial block because you want the game to tell you when you've had enough. You don't want to have to make the sacrifice to choose to level another character because of the possibility that player X might get ahead of you. If this isn't how you feel, please, let me know, because this is the impression that the thread is presenting.

[Visinthien]

If you were to refer a friend to play this game, you would have to include how screwed they would be to ever catch up to anyone else no matter what they did.

For that alone, something would have to be done. Subscriptions only go one way fast without positive word of mouth. Trion "will not" let that happen. It's only a matter of time before something is done. Unfortunately, in the next few months, it will be way to late.

If you had a choice between starting new with everyone on a level playing field or being behind forever no matter what, what would you do. A million+ people also would agree.

They would not be screwed in any way unless their goal was pursuing world firsts in raiding.

I have a group of friends / former WoW guildmates who started EVE online in 2010 and they are (still) having a blast with it. For those unfamiliar with it, in EVE your character earns skill points continously every hour of the day (even if you are offline) endlessly (new skills are added periodically so even a character created on day 1 and kept active till now will not max all skills). Someone who joins the game later will never catch up to an older character. But of all the people I recommended the game to, not one refused it or quit because of that reason.

And the thing is guild requirements even in end-game guilds will be self-regulating. Attrition will remove characters with huge APs, that is a given. Then one of a few things happen:

• There are enough new toons with huge amounts of AP to replace them (which would mean none of this is an issue)
• They lower their AP standards out of the necessity of recruiting
• They keep their standards, fail to recruit, implode, and the vacuum is filled by newer raiding guilds with more realistic standards

And the thing is the vast vast vast vast majority of new players do not feel the need to be racing for world firsts. In fact to players new to the game even raids that everyone was doing before PA was put in are new, fresh and fun content.

[Trehearn]

Trehearn, that's unnecessary and a good way to earn yourself an infraction. Making comments like that does not lead people to support your stance. Debate the issue, don't attack the person.

debating the issue doesn't work, when
1. the other debater is not even open to debate.
2. when their isn't actually a issue to even debate
3. when logic is thrown away, reason is ground to dust, and instead emotion is heralded as truth, and imaginary number start coming into play.
4. when the debater refuses to see any form of logic, and instead follows the "i'm right, and your all dumb and wrong" mentality.

point in fact 10 people have already proven that the problem doesn't even exist, this "debate" ended 15 pages ago, and only though stupid bullheadedness is it still even alive.

[Caydin]

debating the issue doesn't work, when
1. the other debater is not even open to debate.
2. when their isn't actually a issue to even debate
3. when logic is thrown away, reason is ground to dust, and instead emotion is heralded as truth, and imaginary number start coming into play.
4. when the debater refuses to see any form of logic, and instead follows the "i'm right, and your all dumb and wrong" mentality.

point in fact 10 people have already proven that the problem doesn't even exist, this "debate" ended 15 pages ago, and only though stupid bullheadedness is it still even alive.

If you feel that way, the best thing to do is just avoid the topic, since the only thing that will come out of it is that you'll end up frustrated and potentially in trouble with the moderators. It's not worth it.

I don't mind. He was probably sitting their simmering into his st. paddy's beer fuming over me. rather flattering really. Last time I was that far under someone's skin she gave me a baby. You can argue against it all you want but there's no way Trion will let such a gap continue to increase between existing and new characters. They have to make their money somehow. If you think they won't do anything about it then you are seriously deluded.

I expect that sometime in the future experience gains from certain quests will give several levels worth of PAs. I expect them to do this if, and only if, they start to design their content with the expectation that their players will have a certain amount of PA.

But I think you're wrong. Trion's income is not dependent on whether or not they offer PAs freely to anyone and everyone. It's dependent on whether or not their game is fun to play, accessible to anyone who wants to put forth the effort. Trion is not going to design content that would require their players to have leveled 600 times. They're simply not going to do that, not without having put in some sort of work around.

As time progresses and our characters get more powerful, the amount of time we play our characters matters less and less. Let's say we have two characters, both geared from GSB. One character has grinded 600 levels, the other only 30. The increase between the two will be much higher now then in the future, when both characters have managed to get geared from ID. Even if the first character has upgraded from 600 levels to 900 levels, and the second character has only gained 120 levels, the percentage difference between the two will be less than it was when they were GSB geared. The difference may be 20% at first. Then it'll be 18%, then 15%, then 12%, then 9%, et cetera, until the stat increases simply won't matter. The distance will close even faster should the second character actually decide that it's worth it to grind for those PAs instead of just letting them come to him.

There's nothing wrong with this system unless the second character thinks that it's unfair the the first character get rewarded for the time spent playing.

[Thorrand]

If you feel that way, the best thing to do is just avoid the topic, since the only thing that will come out of it is that you'll end up frustrated and potentially in trouble with the moderators. It's not worth it.


I expect that sometime in the future experience gains from certain quests will give several levels worth of PAs. I expect them to do this if, and only if, they start to design their content with the expectation that their players will have a certain amount of PA.

But I think you're wrong. Trion's income is not dependent on whether or not they offer PAs freely to anyone and everyone. It's dependent on whether or not their game is fun to play, accessible to anyone who wants to put forth the effort. Trion is not going to design content that would require their players to have leveled 600 times. They're simply not going to do that, not without having put in some sort of work around.

As time progresses and our characters get more powerful, the amount of time we play our characters matters less and less. Let's say we have two characters, both geared from GSB. One character has grinded 600 levels, the other only 30. The increase between the two will be much higher now then in the future, when both characters have managed to get geared from ID. Even if the first character has upgraded from 600 levels to 900 levels, and the second character has only gained 120 levels, the percentage difference between the two will be less than it was when they were GSB geared. The difference may be 20% at first. Then it'll be 18%, then 15%, then 12%, then 9%, et cetera, until the stat increases simply won't matter. The distance will close even faster should the second character actually decide that it's worth it to grind for those PAs instead of just letting them come to him.

There's nothing wrong with this system unless the second character thinks that it's unfair the the first character get rewarded for the time spent playing.

Their income is dependent on keeping existing players while also getting new ones in. In my case I would get bored of playing the same character all the time. I do understand what you are saying about the gap closing with gear stat inflation, I was merely attempting to give an alternative to keep planar attunement viable in some way as opposed to (as you are saying) making it completely obsolete, wasting everyone's time that worked for it. It is a good system, I just believe it needs tweaking.

I do not want PA gone and I still want it to matter, it just can't continue in it's current form without either alienating new characters/players or upsetting those who spent massive amounts of time on it. I hope we can both agree on that at least.

[Tenof]

I do not want PA gone and I still want it to matter, it just can't continue in it's current form without either alienating new characters/players or upsetting those who spent massive amounts of time on it.

Neither Trion nor Rift alienates new characters/players.
Only some existing players do so, by somehow thinking PA is such a massive game-breaking improvement to the character.

[Thorrand]

Neither Trion nor Rift alienates new characters/players.
Only some existing players do so, by somehow thinking PA is such a massive game-breaking improvement to the character.

Somehow thinking? It is a massive boost, If it's not for you then you're doing it wrong. +30 to main stat weapon buff (or sp/ap) whatever you prefer passive stat gains, resists to free up essences/runes on gear. It's not at all game breaking but yeah, it's a massive boost IF you have the time.

[Trehearn]

Somehow thinking? It is a massive boost, If it's not for you then you're doing it wrong. +30 to main stat weapon buff (or sp/ap) whatever you prefer passive stat gains, resists to free up essences/runes on gear. It's not at all game breaking but yeah, it's a massive boost IF you have the time.

excuse me, you can't come into hk, because you do not have the required gear level, work on your character, then you can come to hk.


vs

excuse me, you can't come into hk, because you do not have the required PA level, work on your character, then you can come to hk.

progression doesn't alienate ANYONE, only complete idiots, and ******s think progression, in a genre which sole purpose is progression would alienate someone. it's as simple as that.

yes, whoopty freaking do, time commited on a character improves said character.

this apply to everyone, equally, a player who commited 15 hours into raiding, will be better then teh player who commited 5 minutes to raiding, a player who commited 50 hours into leveling will be better then teh player who commited 5 minutes, the player who commits 1000 hours into leveling, getting geared, and raiding at endgame, will be better then the player who commited 15 minutes trying the game.


what you effectively are saying, is time commitment instantly unbalances the game, and causes players to be alienated, this is redundant, and ****ing stupid, please rethink your logic, go to grade school all over again, and come back.
what you want would completely, destroy the game by catering not to the casuals, nor the raiders, nor even the intelligent community, it would instead cater to those users who apparently cannot grasp simple time commitment reward systems.

lets apply your logic to the real world, i work two jobs, i work for a fast food joint where i make 7.80 a hour, i work there for about 20 hours a week, i also work for a landscaping group where i make 12.50 a hour, but i only work for them about 5 hours a week, i cannot make my wage from my landscaping job carry over to my fast food job, because those are two separate entities, nor can i make my hours transfer to the landscaping job, i commit 20 hours a week to my fast food job, i get paid for that 20 hours, i commited 5 hours to my landscaping job, i get paid for those 5 hours, i do not go to my landscaping supervisor and say a blanket statement like "i work 25 hours a week, pay me for those 25 hours" and in game i don't go to trion and say "hey trion, i played your game for 5000 hours (over 329 characters) yet, i feel alienated because that guy who played 500 hours on his single main is now in hammerknell with awesome orange loots, and is better then my main, who is only lvl 42..."

your logic is a simple idiotic idea, one which goes against teh entire bloody genre.

[Trehearn]

oh, also thorrand, get this though your skull already,

a player who commits 500 hour their character should be rewarded for such, not penalized, i do not see any post, in your post history where you ***** and moan about hk geared players being better geared than fresh 50, nor do i see anywhere about pvp rank 8 players having better pvp gear then fresh lvl 50 with no pvp experience, nor do i see anywhere where you complain about wealthy players who committed time to playing the market having higher plat than newbie lvl 10, your entire argument is a giant ****ing billboard of hypocrisy, until you start complaining about the very essence of end game progression you frankly, have zero argument, and only abundantly prove that you lack mental intellect.

[Tenof]

It's not at all game breaking but yeah, it's a massive boost IF you have the time.

As long as it's not game breaking, the game is not alienating new players/characters.
Therefore players shouldn't feel it is either.

[Thorrand]

you frankly, have zero argument, and only abundantly prove that you lack mental intellect.

I believe you did that yourself. PA is a non sustainable model which if left as is will have one of two outcomes. It will either become obsolete therefore wasting the peoples time who worked hard on it, or it won't and the gap between existing players and new ones will get larger and larger. I see the concept of common sense escapes you. It must be hard not seeing past the end of your nose. For someone that doesn't think it's an issue you're certainly spending a lot of time on it.

Here is some coverage of this 'non' issue that you don't feel are important.
22:55-~51:00 - http://farmstatuspodcast.podomatic.c...15_44_16-08_00

As for you apparent personal vendetta against me. I am flattered you can't get me off of your mind. I just wish it wasn't only idiots I attract. seriously. get a girl.