A raider's case against PAs

[TechnoMage]

Yes, it will make the encounter easier... who for though?

Let me put another spin on this.

Guild A is a hardcore guild, their average member has 600 PA levels.
Guild B is has recently finished HK, average member has 120 PA levels.

Guild A is picked for PTS to test new raid. PA levels are completely ignored (meaning, they are left as is) and testing is done.. Guild A declare a fight is "perfectly tuned" as it's challenging yet in no way easy. Let's assume this fight is a DPS race fight too.

Developers are happy, content goes live.

Guild A facerolls this boss as they had another week/month to get more PA.
Guild B says hello to boss and finds themself 7-15k DPS short of the requirement.


Forum troll then says "PA doesn't matter" ... someone with a tiny bit of foresight knows it does.

Trion has said they are tuning encounters with the idea that people have no PA's. So you're going to have to do more then provide a what if scenario that goes directly against what the devs have stated.

[Archemys]

Think of PA as a level up.

Just because you level a rogue to 50 doesn't mean you also leveled up a mage to 50. Think of PA as levels beyond 50 that you actually have to attain.

[mo0trix]

Trion has said they are tuning encounters with the idea that people have no PA's. So you're going to have to do more then provide a what if scenario that goes directly against what the devs have stated.

They say that, then test encounters with live PA levels.

[Laeris]

Pretty much all non casual guilds do nowdays. (and its in the several hundreds area, u no have 500pa? no? u baaad)

I have almost 15k

[Gaaz]

The PvP forum isn't awash with people complaining about PvE gear and the necessity of +hit? We must be reading different PvP forums.

The PvP forums are awash with QQ of all types, few of them have any validity.

ye and this PvE post is ********...

Just remember : when you talk to an idiot, he's probably doing the same. PvE forums aren't any better than PvP forums, and most PvP QQs are made by some lost PvEers.

I know this is off topic, but anyway, I think ppl explained enough that there's no real reason to make it the way OP wants it...

[Gaaz]

Think of PA as a level up.

Just because you level a rogue to 50 doesn't mean you also leveled up a mage to 50. Think of PA as levels beyond 50 that you actually have to attain.

That's the basic idea, but i think peoploe do want a /level 50 command yet...Damn, that game is too hard !

[Laeris]

You people are still missing the boat here. As others have shown, PA is -miniscule- in the end when it comes to raiding. You can have every tree maxed out... and if you stand in the wrong place for 1 second, it nullifies all of your PA.

When you eat a flame tick for 3800 damage, that's pretty 400% more HPs than PA will ever give you. If you so much as do Infiltrator in GSB and eat just 1 blinding bomb, the DPS loss is greater than if you had -0- PA levels and not gotten stunned.

That's why I said that raiders are just using PA levels as elitist snotjerk stats. I consider myself a serious raider... but I don't need to sort raiders by PA levels. We actually get to to know our raiders -before- we let them in full-time. That's the one and only way to figure out if the people you're bringing in are good.

The only people who really care about PA levels are the same types who came from WoW and got weened on gearscore and DPS meters. They're the type of guilds who have recruitment spams like, ""______ " guild is recruiting for HK. Have spots open for heals, DPS, OT, dedicated Archon, and Bard. Must have 50 PA lev, 380+hit/focus. If u don't got the skillz, ****."

I see these every single day. Usually, it's a collection of guilds that have lifespans of about 2 weeks. Different people, mind you... but they're just tools looking to suck in some gullible suckers to do raids. They might do GSB or DH/GP... then wipe on Gaurath in RoS and their guild folds. That, or they get stuck on Matron in HK.

I've seen guilds fail with 15/20 members in 4-piece HK relic gear... and it had nothing to do with PA. To be a good raid guild, you have to be a good guild first. Zerging out a roster with boxscore stats is not going to make a successful raid guild... I don't care how you reason it.

[ironzerg]

Absolutely not. I love when people post this on the forums.. makes me think they must not even play the game, they just come up with silly ideas and post them.

Please, show me a screencap of a PUG that requires any PA at all. Heck, find me any non-HK/RotP group that requires PA.

Until you do (heck, until the majority of cases fall under this description, let alone finding one at all), stop posting make-believe garbage.

It was lamented about in the OP.

4) New Raiding Requirement
Prior to the PA system, raiding guilds simply posted up their class need and perhaps a gear requirement (focus/hit). Now more and more guilds are posting up PA requirements as well. The fact is that if you don't have much PA you will be at an extreme disadvantage compared to someone who has a lot. +60 to your 3 main stats, along with resists, and other bonuses is like wearing 2-3 extra pieces of gear over someone who doesn't have the PA. The "gear level" difference between someone with 100k PA and 0 PA is pretty monumental. Prior to PA it came down to gear and skill and you could “fast track” people to get gear if you wanted to. There is no fast tracking PA. Now I have to tell people who went on vacation or had RL stuff come up that they are so far behind in PA that we can't really bring them into ID. It's a sad reality that will no doubt grow even worse as the 3rd tier is released.

Hence, I stand by my statement. PA is the new GS.

GS was used as a way to weed out people from raids. You needed X GS if you wanted to come, and usually that number was inflated well beyond what was reasonable for the encounter. Now people are using PA as a barrier for entry, because of the perception that PA is now required to raid.

[TheGrinnz]

You people are still missing the boat here. As others have shown, PA is -miniscule- in the end when it comes to raiding. You can have every tree maxed out... and if you stand in the wrong place for 1 second, it nullifies all of your PA.

When you eat a flame tick for 3800 damage, that's pretty 400% more HPs than PA will ever give you. If you so much as do Infiltrator in GSB and eat just 1 blinding bomb, the DPS loss is greater than if you had -0- PA levels and not gotten stunned.

That's why I said that raiders are just using PA levels as elitist snotjerk stats. I consider myself a serious raider... but I don't need to sort raiders by PA levels. We actually get to to know our raiders -before- we let them in full-time. That's the one and only way to figure out if the people you're bringing in are good.

The only people who really care about PA levels are the same types who came from WoW and got weened on gearscore and DPS meters. They're the type of guilds who have recruitment spams like, ""______ " guild is recruiting for HK. Have spots open for heals, DPS, OT, dedicated Archon, and Bard. Must have 50 PA lev, 380+hit/focus. If u don't got the skillz, ****."

I see these every single day. Usually, it's a collection of guilds that have lifespans of about 2 weeks. Different people, mind you... but they're just tools looking to suck in some gullible suckers to do raids. They might do GSB or DH/GP... then wipe on Gaurath in RoS and their guild folds. That, or they get stuck on Matron in HK.

I've seen guilds fail with 15/20 members in 4-piece HK relic gear... and it had nothing to do with PA. To be a good raid guild, you have to be a good guild first. Zerging out a roster with boxscore stats is not going to make a successful raid guild... I don't care how you reason it.

Not all raid bosses are Silgen. That is where "if you stand in the wrong place for 1 second, it nullifies all of your PA" could apply. Most fights are not so black-and-white. PA will not directly win or lose the fight in the way that having people pay attention and have the required amount of hit/focus will, but if those are not a problem, then it will considerably help.

[mo0trix]

You people are still missing the boat here.

I think you'll find it's you missing the boat. You can make your own examples up about HP differences... but there's way more to it than that.

Someone posted the stats you gain if you max out all trees... imagine if that is done 20 times and add those stats to a raid.. you're telling me it makes NO difference? On top of that the resistance stats AND the incoming tier 3s which will just add more stats. Please... whatever you're on, share !

[mavfin87]

you're telling me it makes NO difference?

Encounters are not tuned to depend on them. I guess if you need a crutch to do the encounters, fine, then advertise "Must have X PA, because we need training wheels in this guild!"

A good player who may not have farmed PA incessantly yet is always better than a mediocre player with X PA. Of course, the Gearscore crowd never learned that.

[TheGrinnz]

Encounters are not tuned to depend on them. I guess if you need a crutch to do the encounters, fine, then advertise "Must have X PA, because we need training wheels in this guild!"

A good player who may not have farmed PA incessantly yet is always better than a mediocre player with X PA. Of course, the Gearscore crowd never learned that.

And a good player with 6000 HP getting hit for 6200 damage will get oneshotted, where a mediocre player with 6500 HP won't. It all matters.

[Chaosoul]

Minor peeve, but roads were 'invented' long before cars were. At least 2000 years prior.


*insert picture of Nokia 3310 here*

As to the issue at hand: PAs are meant to be a fun bit of progression, as has been stated many times through the thread. Personally, I have ~550, largely earned through grinding invasions for crafting materials. Do I think it makes me a better member in my raid? No. I'd value Mr. ICanDodgeFire with 0PA more than Mr. I'mAFoolStandingInAoE with 1kPA.

Also, Trion so far as I'm aware are not tuning any encounters to a set amount of PA. Why should they? PA is a fun little extra to keep people occupied and give a sense of progression for just doing the things you love and enjoy in the game.

Dangit! You people that are well grounded and have a good sense of logic and common sense are ruining my enjoyment while I read this thread.

Take your correct statements and sound logic to some other thread!

lols... hai guys.

[mavfin87]

And a good player with 6000 HP getting hit for 6200 damage will get oneshotted, where a mediocre player with 6500 HP won't. It all matters.

Trion isn't balancing encounters that way. If the above happens, they balanced it wrong. End of story.

[Cataplexis]

Forget my several hundred PA levels and hammerknell relics, I'm just going to min/max in my starting gear. Watch out Sicaron parses!