Will HK be pointless with next tier of raiding?

[MoonfireSpam]

The problem with that is SP>SC for mages anyway, In most cases where you add SC you would have to lose some SP in the process therefore making it a stat lose. So yes mages don't have 3k SC but why would you make your character less powerful?

I'm afraid I don't know the various pieces of mage gear by heart, you'd have to point me at some specific examples where transitioning from the BiS piece in one tier of gear to the BiS piece of the next tier of gear is a net loss of SP.

[Vioarr]

Ok so I've been reading a lot of people responding about the focus issues with going from T1 to T3. If I were to fully focus shard my T1 set my focus would come out to be 396, add a 20 focus rune in your planar and your g2g. Now in terms of stats *Comparing my HK gear that I have obtained in the last 7 months to the stats of the T1 gear I walked in there with.
The difference between the 2 sets.....with the HK set I get and additional 158sp, 190 sc and atm I am only sitting at 388 focus so I will have to shard a piece or 2 with focus gear when DI comes out anyway.
*Note-Neither set is or was BIS but both are the full mark pieces and the rest are drops from their respective tiers. Also This is for the mage class, So I do not know how other classes have changed with update and how well they scale with their gear.

^This is the point I was trying to make with my original post,I don't think the steps in gear are large enough now, which will make dungeons or at least part of dungeon progression pointless to do other than to say you have been there and kill said boss. Don't get me wrong I think that HK is a awesome dungeon I have enjoyed my time spent in there, I just don't feel from a strict gear perspective that it was worth my time.

396 + 20 = not enough.

Math is fun.

HK gear gives you 400 hit/focus without enchants. You can downplay the significance of the stat loss from using full hit/focus enchants and hit/focus banners but you would be foolish to do so. The guilds that worked on Akylios when hit/focus banners were required understand this. This is pointless theorycraft and really just boils down to mage QQ about gear. "But what if a guild comes along after ID is released and skips Hk completely, that would be crazy!" I saw a kid in the park skip over a stepping stone while trying to cross a stream. He slipped and fell in. It's unfair that he didn't have to use every stepping stone that I did when I crossed much earlier without falling in, guess I better post on the forums about it.

It's fine that you mages want your gear to have more stats, but stop fishing for some epic game breaking reason. You need HK gear to succeed in ID, stop wasting time arguing otherwise because you don't know what you are talking about whereas several of the people replying are better informed on the subject of raiding.

[Durango]

For mages it is. Crit is totally useless, at cap even if you avoid it. Difference between T3 and T4 set is a joke. Only gain is in the weapon, rest is maybe 50 SP total.

For rogues, as dex on gear has gone up, it has allowed us to shift to more AP focused enchants, source engines, etc, significantly increasing our AP. Now only if they'd give us a glove enchant that wasn't +15 crit.

[Durango]

Not to mention fire cores are going to exacerbate the problem due to the already bad itemization.

Fire cores are going to suck for every class in every role. I've got over it months ago.

Several hex slots are perhaps 1 SP greater than alternative non hex pieces as well as most of our gear no longer even BiS, as again, due to the crit issue, we want cleric gear for everything on the right side of our character sheet.

I don't care as there's not much to be done to change it. But that's probably the outrage.

Welcome to rogues 12 months ago.

[Durango]

^This is the point I was trying to make with my original post,I don't think the steps in gear are large enough now, which will make dungeons or at least part of dungeon progression pointless to do other than to say you have been there and kill said boss. Don't get me wrong I think that HK is a awesome dungeon I have enjoyed my time spent in there, I just don't feel from a strict gear perspective that it was worth my time.

The point is that if you cannot knock out current HK in under 3 hours, it is unlikely you will be able to kill even the first boss in ID. Just like guilds that couldn't do GSB/ROS combined in under 2 hours couldn't do jack in HK on release. And if you can clear HK in a night, then spending time in there if you don't yet have the gear is going to be more beneficial than failing in the next tier.

And 200 to all the primary stats for a tier as well as 100 hit/focus is pretty hefty, not to mention the set bonuses, etc. You just cannot do anywhere near competitive DPS with a full relic HK toon if you are in T1 gear. The DPS differential between a fully T1 geared and a fully T2 geared raid is on the order of 15K DPS.

[Mustifar]

396 + 20 = not enough.

Math is fun.

HK gear gives you 400 hit/focus without enchants. You can downplay the significance of the stat loss from using full hit/focus enchants and hit/focus banners but you would be foolish to do so. The guilds that worked on Akylios when hit/focus banners were required understand this. This is pointless theorycraft and really just boils down to mage QQ about gear. "But what if a guild comes along after ID is released and skips Hk completely, that would be crazy!" I saw a kid in the park skip over a stepping stone while trying to cross a stream. He slipped and fell in. It's unfair that he didn't have to use every stepping stone that I did when I crossed much earlier without falling in, guess I better post on the forums about it.

It's fine that you mages want your gear to have more stats, but stop fishing for some epic game breaking reason. You need HK gear to succeed in ID, stop wasting time arguing otherwise because you don't know what you are talking about whereas several of the people replying are better informed on the subject of raiding.

Yes it is totally worth spending all the time and effort in HK to hit the bosses in ID an extra >1% of the time and do about 100 dps more. It may be a mage issue, and if that's the case I'll move this issue to the mage thread, My question is does this issue appear across all classes? If so we will be entering ID with about the same dps/heals that people entering HK for the first time will with these new upgrades. Thus making HK a pointless grind....

[Mustifar]

I'm afraid I don't know the various pieces of mage gear by heart, you'd have to point me at some specific examples where transitioning from the BiS piece in one tier of gear to the BiS piece of the next tier of gear is a net loss of SP.

Final Boss from DH Chest "Ragtide Robes"
37 int
25 wis
27 SP
13 ENd
15 Crit
Total stat SP - 58

Nyx Chest Piece from HK 100 greater marks
51 int
26 wis
18 SP
26 crit
18 end
Total Stat SP - 54

[Vioarr]

Nyx's Runeburst Vestments is not BiS. I already showed you the BiS comparison for mage chest and it is not a stat loss. 2 SP and 5 end is not a stat loss.

It is "totally" worth it to have max hit/focus. As I have already said and you have apparently ignored; it's not just a matter of DPS, it is a matter of being able to hit with abilities that are required for certain mechanics, such as interrupts. On the subject of DPS though, a T1 BiS raid group cannot hold a candle to a T2 BiS raid group and if you argue they are even close to the same raid DPS then you are ill equipped for this conversation. You have also ignored the four piece set bonus, which has been mentioned several times already.

HK is not a pointless grind and you have yet to present any reasonable argument to support that claim. I, and others, have authored ample argument to dismiss your claim. Support your claim or lose this thread to the inevitable trolling that comes with QQ.

[Durango]

Yes it is totally worth spending all the time and effort in HK to hit the bosses in ID an extra >1% of the time and do about 100 dps more. It may be a mage issue, and if that's the case I'll move this issue to the mage thread, My question is does this issue appear across all classes? If so we will be entering ID with about the same dps/heals that people entering HK for the first time will with these new upgrades. Thus making HK a pointless grind....

Differential between a raid T1 geared mage and a raid T2 geared mage in HK is close to 1 THOUSAND (AKA 1K AKA 1000) DPS.

[batou079]

Final Boss from DH Chest "Ragtide Robes"
37 int
25 wis
27 SP
13 ENd
15 Crit
Total stat SP - 58

Nyx Chest Piece from HK 100 greater marks
51 int
26 wis
18 SP
26 crit
18 end
Total Stat SP - 54

err i believe the SP from the Nyx piece comes out to 56.5, not 54. a tiny bit less disparity.
But you are taking a singular piece comparison. Now compare a full Nyx geared player to a full T1 raid geared player's total SP. And tell me the difference.

The DPS difference from T1 full set to T2 raid full set should make it obvious already... the margin remains quite large.

[Vioarr]

err i believe the SP from the Nyx piece comes out to 56.5, not 54. a tiny bit less disparity.
But you are taking a singular piece comparison. Now compare a full Nyx geared player to a full T1 raid geared player's total SP. And tell me the difference.

The DPS difference from T1 full set to T2 raid full set should make it obvious already... the margin remains quite large.

Doesn't matter because you shouldn't compare T1 BiS to T2 nonBiS.

The difference between the T1 set and T2 epic set is 30 SP.

The difference between the T1 set and T2 relic set is 48.5 SP.

That means the difference between the T2 epic and T2 relic is 18.5 SP, more than half the difference between T1 and T2 epic. It is stupid for people to cry about T2 epic set pieces when they are not BiS and all but chest is currently easy for any guild that should even be thinking about ID.

And yes, the T2 epic chest has 56.5 SP on it, further proof the OP is not qualified to discuss this topic.

I do research son.

[Adastra]

Yes it is totally worth spending all the time and effort in HK to hit the bosses in ID an extra >1% of the time and do about 100 dps more. It may be a mage issue, and if that's the case I'll move this issue to the mage thread, My question is does this issue appear across all classes? If so we will be entering ID with about the same dps/heals that people entering HK for the first time will with these new upgrades. Thus making HK a pointless grind....

If we assume a player has no T2 raid or equivalent gear, I think they will have 304 hit/focus without any runes that increase it. If we add in all the runes, that's +75 hit/focus for 379. If we assume ID requires 420 for 100% hit rate, that's a 41 hit/focus deficit which should come out to about a ~8.2% miss rate if we go by 5 rating = 1%.

I'd say that's a pretty significant chunk of dps lost there, not to mention the loss of a 4/4 HK set bonus which is a nice boost in itself. It's not like you need to full clear HK to prepare yourself for ID, but at the very least, you should have some T2 raid or equivalent (from RotP) to meet the gear/dps checks that will happen in ID.

[Pixel Monkey]

Will HK be pointless with next tier of raiding?

no more pointless than these kinds of threads.
if you cant survive hk mechanics and all then you wont stand a chance in id.
its more than a gear check

simply by asking this question you have already proved how little you understand raiding

[Safonz]

ahh, the rambling back and forth, so much time we all have on our hands.

HK can and will be skipped by some, at least upstairs. Just like people are pugging murd matron rotp first boss and minis etc with a couple pieces of GSB/ROS gear or less. people will eventually not need anything more than a few drops of the first bosses in HK to walk in and do the "dps check" boss in ID, every raid has a couple gimme bosses over time.

My issue is that when they shrink the gap with t1 t2 raiding to the point of almost overlapping, nobody will be spending weeks upon weeks getting a coordinated 20 man akylios kill when they can take their t1 and first few hk boss gear and start working on ID.

[Vioarr]

You don't have a clue what ID will be like. I'm not sure what you're crying about anymore. You will not kill anything in ID without 4 piece from HK and you aren't in a position to argue with me on the subject. So what if people aren't required to kill Akylios to go to ID. If you make Akylios gear required for ID then it would take ages to gear up and if you don't make Akylios gear required for ID then people like you cry on the forums about nothing. Sounds like a win, win for Trion.