ID Conclave warrior exclusion

[Zeice]

Warboss Drak has an anti melee AOE.
Ituziel has the fire walls which cause huge disconnects.
Conclave has anti melee AOE's.
Maklamos has anti melee AOE.

While I will agree that it can be frustrating as a DPS warrior, we have since been able to compensate for most of these fights where our warriors are rocking DPS.

Warboss Drak has the anti-melee disconnect, but it's nothing too serious.

Ituziel is a joke if you use the wall strat, melee only has to move for a few waves and our warriors are in 3800-4200 dps range.

Maklamos is an issue? The only thing that can kill melee is if two tanks get a desolation pulse, and usually it just involves one of them jumping off the platform to solve that issue. Other than that melee stands at max melee with their thumb up their ***.

Rusila they run bombs in P1, and DPS in P2. Maybe move slightly for Thousand Cuts?

HM Conclave we kill Packmaster first so there is no worry of feedback. Everyone is stacked in melee anyway so it's just the movement from crystal placement. Witchlord next, minimal movement. Yes, there are the orbs in P3 against Ereetu, but I tank this part and just move the boss out of them and the warriors jump back in when they can.

Laethys is a dream boat for warrior DPS.

Can't speak past that. =p

[Gyftov]

Considering how warriors are almost essential for Laethys and there are ways to compensate on the fight(s) and being able to contribute for most of the conclave fight, your guild should suck it up and learn to deal with it. Scythe drops from Conclave and no rogues will contest it. While you can probably farm the p50 weapons now, it's shooting yourself in the foot in the long run.

[Bwick]

I didn't say Maklamos was and issue, I meant that desolations sole purpose is to avoid players that are too close, and the only players who are gonna be punished by that is melee. It's a fine margin being in and out of range of melee while not going to be hit by the aoe. Ranged just pick a spot and stand there.

Warboss Drak, it might be minor, but it's nothing that range has to worry about, they just stand there.

What is the wall strat on Ituziel? We had new tanks on it last night and were tanking it in the middle of the room near the edge of the pool. Melee were on his *** as much as possible but were all around 2.5 - 2.8k.
And sure, all classes have to avoid the fire, but range can position themselves to have far more time to avoid it and they can still be putting out max dps while they move.

The point of the thread was more to see what trions stance on it was, warrior is the only class getting marginalised by these design decisions and it's getting worse as more dungeons are released with more complex and punishing mechanics. Raids are running with less and less warriors and I certainly feel my guild would be better off replacing me with a rogue or mage in pretty much every circumstance.

Why should they be forced to adopt oddball strategies and try and manipulate the fight in specific ways for just a few players when they could replace those players and blast through it using any strategy.

"Oh no! deez mechanics, they be stoppin me from delivering all my l33t dips."
Well, yea, when you're up against an enrage timer and everyone is expected to be maxing their dps and ALL warriors are being pushed further and further down the meter and the raid is having to adjust themselves just so the warriors aren't an even bigger hinderance it kinda does come down to mechanics stopping me from delivering my dps.

[Kaybriar]

The wall strat on Ituziel is pretty foregiving for melee, but even more foregiving for ranged. Our warriors pull 4200-4600ish with this strat. Meanwhile though, our mages are pulling 4600-4900+

The crux of this thread is that in the meta of risk versus reward, the risk of bringing a melee is greater than the reward of better dps, faster kill times, and an increased pace of progression. This is inarguable on every single fight in ID except Maklamos and Laethys.

Nobody is saying the mechanics are too tough to deal with, and good players always find a way to do good dps. The point is, Trion specifically designs raids and boss mechanics to hinder our ability to dps as well as other classes in most situations, and at the same time making it more advantageous to have less melee dps in general.

I don't know how anyone can even argue this.

[Bwick]

You summed it up pretty well, people will always argue though hence the reason we're in this situation. Before all the rebalances we would comfortably top the dps charts in MOST boss encounters, but previous bosses punished everyone equally for the most part. A lot of hugging the *** of the boss or specific targets for melee and ranged. Then they buffed other classes damage output to be at least on par given 100% uptime which was fine for bosses inHK, GSB and RoS. ID though has been designed solely to punish melee, when an anti melee AOE hits there is no ranged equivalent, there is no balanced mechanic to prevent range from doing damage. Then the enrage timers are balanced based on 100% uptime of the entire raid or damn close to it.

These lopsided changes and balancing acts have swung the balance completely in the direction of ranged which were already easier to play. Now theyre easier and do more damage and are guaranteed a far higher uptime on bosses than melee.

It would be nice for atrius to give us some feedback, see where he sees warrior dps going forward or if he thinks we are just a lost cause and going forward boss designs will continue along the same course as those in ID.

[Zyzyx]

You summed it up pretty well, people will always argue though hence the reason we're in this situation. Before all the rebalances we would comfortably top the dps charts in MOST boss encounters, but previous bosses punished everyone equally for the most part. A lot of hugging the *** of the boss or specific targets for melee and ranged. Then they buffed other classes damage output to be at least on par given 100% uptime which was fine for bosses inHK, GSB and RoS. ID though has been designed solely to punish melee, when an anti melee AOE hits there is no ranged equivalent, there is no balanced mechanic to prevent range from doing damage. Then the enrage timers are balanced based on 100% uptime of the entire raid or damn close to it.

These lopsided changes and balancing acts have swung the balance completely in the direction of ranged which were already easier to play. Now theyre easier and do more damage and are guaranteed a far higher uptime on bosses than melee.

It would be nice for atrius to give us some feedback, see where he sees warrior dps going forward or if he thinks we are just a lost cause and going forward boss designs will continue along the same course as those in ID.

People have posted in this thread about why you are wrong. There is no fight in ID that melee cannot participate on just as much if not more than everyone else.

EDIT: I can't really understand where you are coming from since our warriors top the dps in most if not all fights in ID. All dps seems pretty close right now. The biggest differences come from warriors and sabs. If there are adds, both spike way up there. Mages/rogues can be around 100-200 dps ahead of warriors on single target. This requires the fight to allow rogues to use the most restrictive spec in the game. Also there are few mages in the game who can pull those kind of numbers.

[Kaybriar]

People have already posted in this thread about why you are wrong. This isn't about being able to participate in a fight. Any baddie of any class can participate.

It is about game design that is inherently biased against how a certain class can dps. This includes warriors and melee rogues. Being a rogue I am sure you find it frustrating that you can't use your highest dps spec on almost every fight in ID right?

[Zyzyx]

People have already posted in this thread about why you are wrong. This isn't about being able to participate in a fight. Any baddie of any class can participate.

It is about game design that is inherently biased against how a certain class can dps. This includes warriors and melee rogues. Being a rogue I am sure you find it frustrating that you can't use your highest dps spec on almost every fight in ID right?

Warriors are able to use their highest dps spec on EVERY fight in ID though...

I see how I have the right to complain. I am still trying to figure out where you are coming from.

[Kaybriar]

our warriors top the dps in most if not all fights in ID.

Mages/rogues can be around 100-200 dps ahead of warriors on single target.

You contradicting yourself in the same post aside, how are your warriors top dps in any fight but Maklamos and Laethys? (have not done Maelforge yet so can't comment)

[Zyzyx]

You contradicting yourself in the same post aside, how are your warriors top dps in any fight but Maklamos and Laethys? (have not done Maelforge yet so can't comment)

Do you have to be top dps to feel good about yourself? If you are 50-200 dps within other dps on encounters I'd say that is much more balanced than the craziness we've seen in the past. (Anyone remember sicaron?)

Drak - dps doesn't matter I could care less
Minibosses - afk / dealing with drak loot
Ituziel - wall strat melee has 90-100% uptime.
Conclave - Passive aoe lol.
Maklamos - Passive aoe lol.
Rusila - p1 doesn't really count. P2 melee backs out for 2 mechanics only briefly.
Laethys - Passive aoe lol.
Maelforge eggs - Passive aoe lol.
Maelforge - Passive aoe lol.

So really theres nothing that punishes melee too much. Sure you have to back out of melee for a few seconds on drak, conclave, and rusila ,but come on that's been in the game since GSB. As you can see from my list the real strength of warrior dps that makes them desirable on many fights is the passive aoe that you get from your highest single target dps spec. At least you can use yours...

[Fujitasix]

I thought the whole point of playing a warrior was trying to maximize your uptime without getting yourself killed and enjoying the challenge.

I settle for competing with my fellow red shirts on fights not conducive to melee and blowing everyone away on cleave fights with melee friendly mechanics.

It seems like everyone wants everything. The last thing I want is to feel no distinguishable difference between logging into my different characters and only making minor hotkey changes and getting different graphics for the projectiles.

[Kaybriar]

As you can see from my list the real strength of warrior dps that makes them desirable on many fights is the passive aoe that you get from your highest single target dps spec. At least you can use yours...

Just a hint: Our highest ST dps spec isn't 51champion.

[Bwick]

Fujita, nobody wants the game homogenised. Variation is great, but the way the game is progressing it is marginalising warriors into niche aspects of the game that is largely becoming something raids dont even need anymore.

Raids largely work on numbers and parses, if a warrior isn't ever gonna be able to match or exceed range and if they have to deal with mechanics that the raid would rather ignore or that put extra strain on the raid then guess what the end outcome is gonna be? More warriors sitting in sanctum contemplating why they bothered.

I'm still waiting to see this "wall strat" any vids on youtube ive seen have used tactics similar to what we used with huge amounts of disconnect and the tanks being ping ponged. Most vids also only had 1 or 2 warrior dps, go figure.

Passive AOE isn't anything special, it pads the numbers but boss fights are largely becoming single target fights.

Also, 50-200dps loss per warrior you have in your raid is still a lot when min maxing and when they require the raid to work harder. Rogues complained when they were 50-200 behind even though they didn't have to deal with as many punishing mechanics in HK.

[Zyzyx]

Passive AOE isn't anything special, it pads the numbers but boss fights are largely becoming single target fights.

Also, 50-200dps loss per warrior you have in your raid is still a lot when min maxing and when they require the raid to work harder. Rogues complained when they were 50-200 behind even though they didn't have to deal with as many punishing mechanics in HK.

Passive aoe is really special and something to be desired when composing a raid. Once outside of GSB and ROS, HK and especially ID have many boss encounters where aoe dps is absolutely required. It is really valuable not to require anyone to change specs or switch targets if you have warriors who can just do champion.

Warrior and rogue dps balance goes deeper than just numbers. There are support / tanking concerns as well as the fact that most bosses prohibit the use of the spec that can compete with warriors.

[TheGrinnz]

Just a hint: Our highest ST dps spec isn't 51champion.

It's pretty damn close (and weapon-dependent either way).