Stoneshield - Nerfs and Applications

[Trisian]

You're right, when people become overly aggressive in things they believe in, they should not at all be told they are acting a too zealous.

I don't get where you quite get the idea of my knowing everything, that would be a misinterpretation of your part.

So... chill?

Wow I've lost total respect for you after reading this, because you use to criticize me on pvp, but now to know you've never been there or done that. LOL.... this community seems smaller and smaller by the day. Rift truly is a dying game.

[Trisian]

I'd delete this but there is no option for it. Typical rift forum devs.

[Aguni]

Wow I've lost total respect for you after reading this, because you use to criticize me on pvp, but now to know you've never been there or done that.

What?

O-o
I am rank 40 in PvP/
Soo...not sure what you are bringing up exactly.

LOL.... this community seems smaller and smaller by the day. Rift truly is a dying game.

If only this statement would die too. :eyeroll:

[Zadozex]

This was my personal favorite.

Surge... Surge... SURRRRGGEEE

To be fair, melee doesn't have to back out on surge. I do this fight with 0 disconnect every week.

[MRFabulouss]

They Nerfed StoneShield Because it became to popular an exploit. Other class's can exploit in the same manner (on mak) and it will be "fixed" if it became common knowledge. IMO its not Stone shield itself its just the popularity of the "exploit" that gets nerfed.

[kenji1134]

Well thats fine, make it not work for Orb of Desolation. But dont then go and nerf its use on almost every other thing in the game.

Gonna shoot myself in the foot here, but so far I have tried Stoneshield on every expert boss mechanic. The ONLY one that it still works on is Atro the Fallen's aoe. I have not done an overly thorough test of raid mechanics, however I am pretty sure it no longer works on ANY raid aoe ability. Duke, Hylas, Ghost bubbles in RoS, Shocking Cipher... nothing.

I think all we really want is a middle ground.

***
IF any given AoE mechanic can be outranged by a distance of no more than 30m (meaning any ranged dps can avoid it), then Stoneshield will absorb that attack.
***

So expert boss aoe with a 15-20m range, Stoneshield works. Raid boss aoe with 15-20m range, Stoneshield works.

Examples of where Stoneshield would then NOT work:
Silgen: Not enough room on the platform to outrange, or LoS incinerate, if it is even possible.
Kaler: Icy Explosion cannot be outranged, has to be LoS'd.
Calyx: Frozen Wrath hits everyone, no way around it.
Cinderstorm: Cinderstorm is designed to LoS'd.
Hylas: Soul Fracture hits the entire raid, not possible to outrange to my knowledge.
Maklamos: Orb of Desolation cannot be outranged, or LoS'd.
Rusila: Dread Shot cannot be outranged, LoS'd, etc.
And so forth.

Again, the general rule should be that IF a ranged player can ignore a mechanic by simply being at range, up to a maximum of 30m, then Stoneshield should be able to negate that mechanic. This still requires timing and raid awareness by the warrior using Stoneshield, if they have access to it at all.
All we are asking for is for some means of leveling the playing field between melee and ranged when it comes to the amount of inhibiting mechanics in raids. Until such a time as our dps is balanced not against a standing dummy with zero disconnects, but against a dynamic opponent which provides a reasonable representation of raid conditions, the warrior class requires something to level the playing field.

PS:
Reasonable representation should be something along the lines of a 3-5 second disconnect every 30-45 seconds. Such a scenario mimics the frequency of boss mechanics, and the general time it takes to run out to safety, then back into melee range. These values also provide a roughly 90% melee uptime on the boss, which tends to be true for the majority of raid encounters.

[kenji1134]

Accursed edit timer...

PPS:
I am sure that someone will soon state that warriors do have access to come ranged abilities. Allow me to address that question.

2H builds: 51/13/2, 51/9/6. 51/15/0, do roughly 20-25% of their ST dps at range, with 51/9/6 doing the least, and not having access to Stoneshield.
DW build: 38/22/6, does roughly 35-40% of its ST dps at range, does not have access to Stoneshield.
BM build: 44/22/0, does roughly 10-15% of its ST dps at range, due entirely to the pet, which can die as well. No Stoneshield.

So yes, a warrior CAN do some dps at range. However the dropoff is quite severe, even with the best warrior ranged spec, 38/22/6.
In the end, if a fight calls for decent aoe, then a champ spec with Stoneshield SHOULD be capable of ignoring 1 aoe every 30 seconds in order to compensate for the dps loss which comes with later forced disconnects.
If a fight calls for primarily ST, with more frequent disconnects, then DW 38/22/6 should be the build of choice, forgoing aoe in lue of better ranged capabilities.

However as it stands, the disconnect penalty for a general 2H spec is out of line with other builds, much less other classes. The aforementioned adjustments to Stoneshield will work to help even out those gaps, without making Stoneshield completely exploitable for negating important boss mechanics.

[TheGrinnz]

All we are asking for is for some means of leveling the playing field between melee and ranged when it comes to the amount of inhibiting mechanics in raids. Until such a time as our dps is balanced not against a standing dummy with zero disconnects, but against a dynamic opponent which provides a reasonable representation of raid conditions, the warrior class requires something to level the playing field.

This is only putting a bandaid on the actual issue, which is having more deadly mechanics aimed at melee than at range. With this "fix" you would only be forcing every melee warrior into 10 rb.

[kenji1134]

Perhaps. I completely agree with you that is only serves as a bandaid until there is a balance between the amount of punishing mechanics that affect melee and ranged.

As far as forcing everyone into 10 rb, there is somewhat of a balance between 2H and DW in terms of Stoneshield and ranged damage capabilities.

If you want to go 2H, you can go 51/9/6, for an easier rotation and no Stoneshield. Or 51/13/2 or 51/15/0 for a slightly harder rotation with Stoneshield.

If you want to DW, go 38/22/6. You get some extra runspeed, 2 charges, and are not as heavily punished by disconnects as a 2H build.

It is not really a matter of "forcing" anyone into anything. Each person still has a number of viable choices. Some options call for a more complex rotation in exchange for a conditional defense. Others provide mobility and ranged in exchange for aoe potential. In an ideal-ish world, that would be the case.

This entire point of these proposed changes to Stoneshield is to create the above situation. This will help give us more options regarding viable specs for a given fight, until such a time as there is a balance between anti-melee and anti-ranged mechanics.

[irien]

Accursed edit timer...

PPS:
I am sure that someone will soon state that warriors do have access to come ranged abilities. Allow me to address that question.

2H builds: 51/13/2, 51/9/6. 51/15/0, do roughly 20-25% of their ST dps at range, with 51/9/6 doing the least, and not having access to Stoneshield.
DW build: 38/22/6, does roughly 35-40% of its ST dps at range, does not have access to Stoneshield.
BM build: 44/22/0, does roughly 10-15% of its ST dps at range, due entirely to the pet, which can die as well. No Stoneshield.

So yes, a warrior CAN do some dps at range. However the dropoff is quite severe, even with the best warrior ranged spec, 38/22/6.
In the end, if a fight calls for decent aoe, then a champ spec with Stoneshield SHOULD be capable of ignoring 1 aoe every 30 seconds in order to compensate for the dps loss which comes with later forced disconnects.
If a fight calls for primarily ST, with more frequent disconnects, then DW 38/22/6 should be the build of choice, forgoing aoe in lue of better ranged capabilities.

However as it stands, the disconnect penalty for a general 2H spec is out of line with other builds, much less other classes. The aforementioned adjustments to Stoneshield will work to help even out those gaps, without making Stoneshield completely exploitable for negating important boss mechanics.

20 meters is ranged now? Did they do this for mages, rogues and clerics too?

[Sergeantkeys]

Unless you're running 51 RB in raid [Which you shouldn't unless it's a ranged fight or it has a tonload of disconnects]

Why in all of the 42 hells would you even have stoneshield in your build. I can't think of one spec outside the 51rb that has deep RB for DPS.

The Stoneshield problem isn't relevant to 95% of the builds, why adress it ? It's a PvP ability taken out of context.

The fun things about Rift pve content when you're a warrior is that you will die 90% more than to other classes. Everything and everyone is out there to kill you. Man I love this game.]

Edit:

Lol warrior DPS at ranged, our best warrior goes 2k6 on Conclave while the mages and sabs go 4k like nothing ever happenned. The day I can dish out 4k dps in melee and ranged I'll say we are viable in range.

[kenji1134]

Unless you're running 51 RB in raid [Which you shouldn't unless it's a ranged fight or it has a tonload of disconnects]

Why in all of the 42 hells would you even have stoneshield in your build. I can't think of one spec outside the 51rb that has deep RB for DPS.

The Stoneshield problem isn't relevant to 95% of the builds, why adress it ? It's a PvP ability taken out of context.

The fun things about Rift pve content when you're a warrior is that you will die 90% more than to other classes. Everything and everyone is out there to kill you. Man I love this game.]

Edit:

Lol warrior DPS at ranged, our best warrior goes 2k6 on Conclave while the mages and sabs go 4k like nothing ever happenned. The day I can dish out 4k dps in melee and ranged I'll say we are viable in range.

Stoneshield is available at 10 points into RB. You need 11 for Earth Burst, which is one of the key abilities in 51/13/2, the "max ST build". This is by no means deep RB.

The "Stoneshield problem" is twofold. (Time to ramble again)
1. It is about the disparity of punishing mechanics between melee and ranged, and how we should have at least something to protect us, cause our "Plate Armor" doesnt do the job.
2. It is about the trend of blanket ninja nerfs to warrior abilities which enable us to stand a small chance against ranged dps, under the guise of fixing a singular exploit.

If Atrius came to the forum, and made a post saying "Okay guys, Stoneshield can completely negate Mak's orb. This is unintended and we have to nerf it's ability to do so for this fight." A post like that, and some feedback on the issue, would have been much better than just ninja nerfing it, not only on Mak, but on almost every other expert and boss mechanic.

The problem is that as soon as we got a new toy that helps us level the paying field a little, we get it taken away. This problem wasnt even about "Warriors doing dps in fights that should favor ranged", this was about "A certain warrior ability negates a mechanic in a melee friendly-ish fight", so lets nerf this ability in every way shape and form, so it doesnt work on anything.

The irony is, PEOPLE STILL NEGATE MAK'S ORB! Since the Stoneshield nerf, people have come up with new ways to use only 1 person for that mechanic. I don't see those getting nerfed. Although, perhaps the day will come when the Orb is a simple instant kill unless it has at least 4 stacks of the debuff on it.
Well when that happens, and people find that their guilds cant meet the dps check for that fight without full relics, with every mage perfectly executing defilemancer, every warrior perfectly executing 51/13/2 Ch/Rb/Bm, and every rogue perfectly executing Bloodstalker... When people realize that they cant kill either of the first wing bosses in ID because "they are not perfectly geared and expertly skilled", then RIFT will lose a nice chunk of the raiding playerbase, and more subs.
<Apologies for getting slightly fervent>

This issue is not just "they nerfed my ability to stand in something that should kill me cause Im melee and not ranged", this is about a single class frequently being sectioned out for small exploitable abilities, then without any warning having those abilities nerfed, and ninja nerfed some more, with no compensation or reworking in sight.

I recall when Riftstalker could demolish Rusila by reflecting the last hit of Dreadshot. This took a few weeks to be nerfed to uselessness, and in a week, a compromise was reached, where this ability would no longer be exploitable in this manner, but still served its purpose in all other encounters.
Where is our compromise? Where is our middle ground? At what point do we get something to compensate for us being forced into the thick of every imaginable punishment, other than doing equal dps on a standing dummy?

<grabs a shot of vodka>

[MRFabulouss]

I recall when Riftstalker could demolish Rusila by reflecting the last hit of Dreadshot. This took a few weeks to be nerfed to uselessness, and in a week, a compromise was reached, where this ability would no longer be exploitable in this manner, but still served its purpose in all other encounters.
Where is our compromise? Where is our middle ground? At what point do we get something to compensate for us being forced into the thick of every imaginable punishment, other than doing equal dps on a standing dummy?

<grabs a shot of vodka>

Didn't The Engineering For This Cause More Problems Then It Fixed?

[Bloodbourne]

Unless you're running 51 RB in raid [Which you shouldn't unless it's a ranged fight or it has a tonload of disconnects]

Why in all of the 42 hells would you even have stoneshield in your build. I can't think of one spec outside the 51rb that has deep RB for DPS.

The Stoneshield problem isn't relevant to 95% of the builds, why adress it ? It's a PvP ability taken out of context.

The fun things about Rift pve content when you're a warrior is that you will die 90% more than to other classes. Everything and everyone is out there to kill you. Man I love this game.]

Edit:

Lol warrior DPS at ranged, our best warrior goes 2k6 on Conclave while the mages and sabs go 4k like nothing ever happenned. The day I can dish out 4k dps in melee and ranged I'll say we are viable in range.

What game are you playing and why aren't you on their forums? Please at least install Rift before commenting. Thanks.

[Mr Sandman]

Lol warrior DPS at ranged, our best warrior goes 2k6 on Conclave while the mages and sabs go 4k like nothing ever happenned. The day I can dish out 4k dps in melee and ranged I'll say we are viable in range.

2.6k ahahahaha