AP Scaling and other DPS changes to the Warrior going up to PTS

[intrinsc]

You're right. And I can't remember if I tested Titan's Strength and Resonance being additive or multiplicative, I'll have to run a quick test again just to make sure. And for PA's, Titan's Strength indeed doesn't affect Str PA's, but I was told that Resonance did.

If resonance does it rounds it out to a flat number like 20 or 30 or whatever. I didn't test that long on live, but rain and I did toy with testing it further, but stuff happens. We literally tried for a few minutes with a random bard.

[MealRain]

I just tested this and found what was happening.

Resonance indeed does not stack on PAs.

The issue, which I also just ran across now, was the Prismatic Glory buff being up and throwing the numbers off. It is also up for us now ATM and I made the same mistake until I realized what was going on.

However, that being said, resonance on PAs accounts for an AMAZING 1-3 stat difference on final results. Not a major game changer, but still, it was my bad.

[Boysenberry]

Low Paragon is currently the greatest bang for your buck. For 15 points you get WOTR, Armor Pen and RW giving an extra AP proc.

This however has no synergy with 2 hand weapons whatsoever. Rising Waterfall is hitting like a wet noodle and the extra AP proc from it has a MASSIVE delay.

Why should 2h get punished for going into Para when DW isnt punished for going into Champ? Fixing these two problems will open up many more viable builds.

[PFalcon]

Low Paragon is currently the greatest bang for your buck. For 15 points you get WOTR, Armor Pen and RW giving an extra AP proc.

This however has no synergy with 2 hand weapons whatsoever. Rising Waterfall is hitting like a wet noodle and the extra AP proc from it has a MASSIVE delay.

Why should 2h get punished for going into Para when DW isnt punished for going into Champ? Fixing these two problems will open up many more viable builds.

It's true that champion is the most parasitized spec for its passives. Also, FS. But it doesn't amount to much as far as imbalance, and that's more important than philosophy.

There are a few exceptions where synergy overly parasitizes champion. I don't think 38/22/6 para 2-h'ers and 40champ/26bm's are very healthy specs. They both make use of high cheese to perform what they do, and are at most risk for imbalance. If the 51/13/2 champ spec is the only other spec that runs off cheese.

They've largely fixed RB parasitism, but 6 obviously remains a very popular tertiary spec.

[Boysenberry]

As much as I love it, I agree that 38Para 2H is a silly spec. My two complaints up there were more directed at 2H 51rb/15para.

Buffing Rising Waterfall and leaving WOTM the way it is on the PTS should not break anything.

[PFalcon]

As much as I love it, I agree that 38Para 2H is a silly spec. My two complaints up there were more directed at 2H 51rb/15para.

Buffing Rising Waterfall and leaving WOTM the way it is on the PTS should not break anything.

It was my understanding that 51/15 para is a dual wielding spec due to 50% weapon damage mods compensated by flat elemental damage values. It isn't highly cheesed primarily because RW is nerfed so hard in 2-h now.

[Boysenberry]

If you look through my posts you'll notice that almost every one of them is related to Riftblade. I love the tree and everything about it.

But it's painfully obvious it will never be a truly viable raid spec, due to PVP holding it back.

[Havors]

Right, the random numbers can't exist within T3 with any reasonably geared warrior. You actually can't drop so much crit you start failing. On PTS I tried. Going pure STR/AP results in the same DPS as trying for crit cap, and trying to blend somewhere in the middle.

There is a ton of pseudochoice in 1.8 gear. Almost nothing you choose to do will actuall affect your performance. All you have to do is upgrade, and your DPS will upgrade. What you upgrade with almost doesn't even matter any more.

Sad in a way that there's no thought to what to equip any more, but it's better this way so you don't have to check BiS tables every time something drops.

I know what your saying but trust me once 1.8 has been live for a few weeks, and your stacking Str/Ap someone with the ratio spot on will out DPS you over a 5-10 min fight. Unless Trion have changed the way mathematics works?

When I say out DPS you though I do mean possibly by only a couple of hundred deeps, not much but when your trying to get as much DPS as possible it all counts.

[PFalcon]

Min maxing the ratio may get you 60 dps is my guess. We'll see what non vendor drop armor looks like. Right now you really can't screw up equipping the armor we know about.

[Soulsurfing]

some raid parses including best parsing spec from other classes:

Gear: T2 PA + Seal + Bis HK lvl
Buffs: All except wild growth
Ping time Delay: 200 ms on PTS

Raid Parse: http://minus.com/mF5IiFQ7p/7

Specs compared:
51/13/2 (2h) --- http://minus.com/mF5IiFQ7p/6
51/9/6 (2h) --- http://minus.com/mF5IiFQ7p/4
40/26 (bm) --- http://minus.com/mF5IiFQ7p/
44/22 (dw) --- http://minus.com/mF5IiFQ7p/5
Bloodstalker --- http://minus.com/mF5IiFQ7p/3
38/28 lock/pyro --- http://minus.com/mF5IiFQ7p/2


Extra Parses: (Seems the up time on GI can easily cause some RNG between the parses, to avoid rng an extra parse is done)
http://minus.com/mO3eEIeQU/1f (rogue on bladedancer and mage on 36/30 build).


Conclusion: All RNG considered, 51ch both variations, DW both variations, BM 40ch verison are all parsing very close to each other and very similar to rogue/mage top parsing specs.

PS: also tested 43 rb/23 ch, it is over 5% behind, tested 51 para, it is fairly decent, 2-3% behind.

Shar, have you done a raid parse of Dw 38p/22ch/6rb?

I'm wondering if it'll beat out your 51/13/2 2h raid parse.

Thx

[Mack0603]

Shar, have you done a raid parse of Dw 38p/22ch/6rb?

I'm wondering if it'll beat out your 51/13/2 2h raid parse.

Thx

interested in this as well!!

[Azunia]

Well i know that Pfalcon is probably gonna just ridicule my effort but w/e:

Also note that this post contains copious amounts of math - so if you aren't interested in that just read the last paragraph.

The following calculation is a try to maximize the damage of power strike given a certain level of gear - assuming we can switch around the stats however we want.

First i need to approximate the base value and ap scaling factor of PS so i'm using a linear approximation for 3 datapoints.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...1428%2C3085%29

Which gives us 0,649003*AP + 2152,52 for a crit. Divided by two (assuming speccs without force of will or slayers) gives us 0,32450015*AP + 1076,26 for normal hits.

To calculate the average damage of a strike we have to factor in crit. So we multiply our noncrit by (2*(Critrating/Rating per Crit)+1*(1-(Critrating/Rating per Crit)).

So the complete formula for the damage of a strike is (rating per crit is 2640 because i am not calculating it in percent)

(1076+0,324*AP)*[(2*(Crit/2640)+1*(1-(Crit/2640)]=Damage of average Power Strike

To calculate the optimal maximum of the stat distribution we also have to assume that our total stats are limited to a certain maximum (=itemlvl). So our side condition is that 2*AP+(Critrating)=constant. The two is due to the fact that trion uses a 2:1 ratio for AP vs Crit in itembudget (approximatly).

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...2C0%3Cy%3C1187

That gives us a local maximum at 1406 AP and 1187 Crit

So assuming we can shift our stats around on the same itemlevel its still best to aim for the softcritcap - at least unbuffed.

Now to change the formula for raidbuffs:

To make calculations easier i assume we get 20% crit from the raid but lower the critcap to 1020. Ap gain in Raid is around 260 (with all buffs, flask, bufffood and banner).

(1076+0,324*(AP+260))*[(2*(Crit/2640+0,2)+1*(1-(Crit/2640-0,2)]=Damage of average Power Strike

Then again we abuse the power of mighty wolframalpha and we get:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...2C0%3Cy%3C1020

And once again we arrive at the critcap at 1020 crit. So its still best to go for the soft critcap. IF you have items of the same itemlvl to swap out. Remember this is not a calculation for swapping gear but for best in slot type calculations, or comparing gear of the same itemlevel. But at least we can be sure that in the end we want to be at the critcap - at least for power strike in 51 champ.

[wraithh]

That is exactly what I was envisioning and exactly the program I'd have used to do it.

However -

I think you flipped Trion's condition. They value 1 AP = 2 crit approximately, not 2 AP = 1 crit.

So your 2x+y = 4000 surface condition should actually be x + 2y = 4000, unless I am reading things wrong.

EDIT - which I am, never mind.

[wraithh]

Running with this a bit more now that I have a clue what's going on:

An AP-heavy build is at ~850 crit rating from what I've heard. If I just plug those numbers in then I get a PS hit of ~3210 versus the maximum of ~3263 if you're instead at softcap.

I think PFalcon's conclusions that it's not a big deal are probably right given that - because yes, softcap is ideal, but the cost of deviation from ideal is quite small - like, if you spammed PS and nothing else it'd cost you 33 dps. RNG in exactly how often you crit is gonna cost you (or gain you) as much as that I expect...

Basically - upgrade to the next "tier" of gear, however you can, statwise, and if you can keep tier-equivalent stuff, go for the crit softcap over AP, seems to be what I draw from that.

[Ferboten]

I like where this is going, and it would be interesting to see where this goes compared to my calculator.

There's a few things though:

1. Crits do 1.5x damage, not 2x, and FoW/Slayer's add to that multiplier
2. Crits are based off the maximum possible normal hit, rather than the average, so you would have to find the average normal damage. Otherwise you'll have higher values for normal hits, lowering the value of crit.
3. It's not enough to pick 1 ability and base it off that, since different abilities scale differently with AP, especially with 1.8. Ideally you would want to base it off the weighted average of all the abilities used in a rotation, but this can become a lot of work.
4. Raid buffs could have an effect on the numbers, and it can be difficult to figure out their effect without having a full raid at your disposal.

In my dps calculator spreadsheet I have models for most warrior abilities which could make things somewhat easier. If you need any help, I'd be happy to.