AP Scaling and other DPS changes to the Warrior going up to PTS

[Durango]

Yes, I should drink more coffee before I post in the mornings. However, what I'm hearing from guild rogues about PTS and the changes going on for 1.8 disagrees with you (or at least includes a lot more information that you're ignoring).

You can probably gkick those rogues because they don't have a clue.

In either case.. are we rogues? Are we mages? Are we clerics?

No we are not.

And you aren't a special snowflake either.

And if you're paying attention to the things I'm actually saying, then you'd know what I'm arguing against is the arguments people use for why ST and AoE DPS can't both be good in one spec... all of which, so far, are flawed arguments.

ST and AoE can be good, they can't both be excellent however, and that is what you seems to want. Champs currently on PTS have AoE on par with SC and Cab. You also want them to have ST on par with BS, Pyro, and Inquisitor. So you want Excellent AoE and Excellent ST.

We need a 2H dps spec that is on par with DW, and vice versa.
If 51 Champ is tied with DW para, people point to champ's AoE and say it isn't fair.
If 51 RB 2h was tied with DW para, it still has better aoe than DW para.
If 51 BM 2h was tied with DW para, it still has better aoe than DW para.

Nobody cares if you top ST DPS spec has better AoE than para. They care if it as as good of AoE as Champ, SC, Cab, and Sab. The later three of which sacrifice significantly amounts of competitive ST in order to have competitive AoE. All three are in the range of 70-40% of max ST DPS for their class. You want champ to be able to do 100% ST and 100% AoE. Which is against the trend.

Champ is the only tree that is 2H viable that brings NOTHING ELSE to the table except for AoE. It has the least utility, lowest mobility and 0 rdps.

You seem to think that AoE isn't valuable. You can always lobby for champ to be put down to BS levels of AoE, utility, and viability, but I'm not sure you would like the result.

There is no soul that balances better for 2h st dps than Champ and ensures that warriors use most of their souls.

Both RB and BM balance better than champ.

[Durango]

There's something that you keep (intentionally?) skipping over. Sabo, Cabalist, Stormcaller - do not require the player to change gear in order to use. THAT is the difference.

Champ requires players to change gear as much as Sabo, Cab, or SC. I would also bet money that clerics, rogues, and mages carry around the same number of gear sets if not more than warriors.

Instead of questioning if Champion ST should be competitive to other souls, question if Champion AOE should be competitive to other callings.

If you want to nerf champ AoE, that is a viable way to go, you just have to convince your devs and all the other warriors that warriors shouldn't be able to do competitive AoE DPS.

[Galibier]

There's something that you keep (intentionally?) skipping over. Sabo, Cabalist, Stormcaller - do not require the player to change gear in order to use. THAT is the difference.

Instead of questioning if Champion ST should be competitive to other souls, question if Champion AOE should be competitive to other callings.

If you mean AE competitive to say MM or Inquis, souls tagged as primary ST I agree with your argument. I just got the distinct impression from Wylts post that he felt the Champion soul should be able to compete with Bloodstalker on ST dps and then Stormcaller or Cab builds on AE. This is right out. This latter situation is the one I have issue with. One calling simply should not have the best of both worlds in a single build.

As for the gear thing I am not overlooking it. This maybe because on my cleric I run shaman for some encounters and Inquisitor for others so I already swap out gear depending on the build quite regularly.

[Mack0603]

Where did the idea of 2H ST DPS being 500dps behind DW come from? It's not.

Parses are not mine, just taken from within this thread a couple pages back.

41/23/2 RB/Champ/Reav
http://i.imgur.com/4o7Vx.png

44/20/2 Para/Champ/RB
http://i.imgur.com/EmV9M.png

But like I said before, I would love to see a competitive 2H ST DPS spec. Was just clearing up some misinformation that was spread. I do agree, further changes need to be made

Quoted to bring it onto new page

[Sebb]

Champ requires players to change gear as much as Sabo, Cab, or SC. I would also bet money that clerics, rogues, and mages carry around the same number of gear sets if not more than warriors.

Serious? I don't see mages going from staff to 1h/OH because they're switching to SC. Please tell me what you change when you use sabo.

We're talking about champ vs para here.

[mistacrowley420]

Champ requires players to change gear as much as Sabo, Cab, or SC. I would also bet money that clerics, rogues, and mages carry around the same number of gear sets if not more than warriors.

I think he is saying that if we were to DW for our top ST, and if champ was only AoE; we would have to switch weapons. Pretty sure none of the other classes do that. Also lol at mages carrying just as many gear sets...

[Etilhan]

There's something that you keep (intentionally?) skipping over. Sabo, Cabalist, Stormcaller - do not require the player to change gear in order to use. THAT is the difference.

If we have one ST DPS soul with DW and one ST DPS soul with 2H, and then Champ as our AOE soul, we don't have to change gear, except if we want to DW.
It's a choice.

[paper]

Quoted to bring it onto new page

The DW parse was done w/ purple weapons. I have a relic 2hander. Here is a parse done with relic 1handers.

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...29170486_n.jpg

2hand is around 150dps behind at the moment. I'd rather not discuss the state of beastmaster because it is just depressing.

[Etilhan]

I think he is saying that if we were to DW for our top ST, and if champ was only AoE; we would have to switch weapons. Pretty sure none of the other classes do that. Also lol at mages carrying just as many gear sets...

What we were saying is that Champ is not the only choice to compete with Para. I don't see where's the problem with RB as our 2h ST DPS soul. Its AOE is better than Para but its RDPS is worse.

[Durango]

Serious? I don't see mages going from staff to 1h/OH because they're switching to SC. Please tell me what you change when you use sabo.

We're talking about champ vs para here.

Depending on gear? MH, OH, Ranged. Weapon setups for melee are not generally optimal for ranged. And stat weights also change based on specs with %15 dex increase (Sab and BD). Trinkets also change, esp when switching to/from sab because sab doesn't proc a number of things.

[smizbert]

I hope that 44dw wont be top parsing when it comes live.. It will be a hard time getting one handers for us.. It will be fights between rogues and warriors then.

[Sebb]

What we were saying is that Champ is not the only choice to compete with Para. I don't see where's the problem with RB as our 2h ST DPS soul. Its AOE is better than Para but its RDPS is worse.

And what others are saying is that champ should be able to compete with RB and BM for ST dps. It's AOE is better but it's range, mobility and utility is far worse.

[Durango]

And what others are saying is that champ should be able to compete with RB and BM for ST dps. It's AOE is better but it's range, mobility and utility is far worse.

That's a bad argument to go down, or you are going to have to start arguing for bloodstalker to be the highest ST DPS in the game bar none.

[Sebb]

That's a bad argument to go down, or you are going to have to start arguing for bloodstalker to be the highest ST DPS in the game bar none.

What was that? I couldn't hear you over the sound of you using a tank soul to dps.

[Achamian]

Quoted to bring it onto new page

I believe when the 500 Dps difference was mentioned they were referring to 51champ st Dps