AP Scaling and other DPS changes to the Warrior going up to PTS

[vg stoper]

they have no idea what they are doing if one dev is cleaning last devs mess right now you can raid with it
now have to trust them to rebuild the warrior class no one cares about the player that log on 3hours nights and 2 days a week telling the devs how the class should be when most of the guys saying all this are playing diff game 90% of the week why . it is a bad idea in this game the way it is now with pa
sor stone grind to piss players off to the point of unsub then if they want to come back be too far back on pa when a player stops playing now its for good
no one give a sh#t what you think of my typing the bank they use will miss my money in the end money is all that counts not you big mouth

[Wylt]

they have no idea what they are doing if one dev is cleaning last devs mess right now you can raid with it
now have to trust them to rebuild the warrior class no one cares about the player that log on 3hours nights and 2 days a week telling the devs how the class should be when most of the guys saying all this are playing diff game 90% of the week why . it is a bad idea in this game the way it is now with pa
sor stone grind to piss players off to the point of unsub then if they want to come back be too far back on pa when a player stops playing now its for good
no one give a sh#t what you think of my typing the bank they use will miss my money in the end money is all that counts not you big mouth

Your post seems like a lesson on how to mash 23 different thoughts into one babbling mess.

This isn't the place for complaints about PA. I have 518 PA levels with little effort. If you don't want to grind them, don't. If you don't like raiders helping Atrius scale DPS, then jump onto PTS yourself and post some parses to help out. If all you're going to do is complain, keep it to yourself. This thread has been derailed enough without your assistance.

[Galibier]

And the difference here is that you're comparing classes with 2, 3 max dps souls to a class with HALF of their souls being DPS (because we can only do 2 things). You're comparing apples to oranges. Not to mention different devs to different devs, and they clearly all have their own design. Not to mention their current efforts with rogues disagrees with you (if you really must compare apples to oranges).
.

Well first you are off because Clerics have as many dps souls as warriors as does mages. All of them have 4 dps souls. So out of the gate your premise is ganked. The current efforts with rogues confirm it because the expressed intent by the rogue dev is to make Sabo an AE soul that is competitive with Cab.

You can rationalize it however you want but the days of the all in one dps soul are numbered. It would be better to accept it now and move or else you'll just get more frustrated.

[Sebb]

No, it doesn't, because 2h should be able to ST just as well at DW.

This. You can't say Champ gets to pay for it's AOE dps with ST nerf when paragon does not pay for it's mobility.

[Sebb]

Well first you are off because Clerics have as many dps souls as warriors as does mages. All of them have 4 dps souls. So out of the gate your premise is ganked. The current efforts with rogues confirm it because the expressed intent by the rogue dev is to make Sabo an AE soul that is competitive with Cab.

You can rationalize it however you want but the days of the all in one dps soul are numbered. It would be better to accept it now and move or else you'll just get more frustrated.

Mages have 5 - pyro/ele/sc/necro/warlock
Rogues have 6 - Rng/MM/Sab (range) - Sin/NB/BD (melee)

[PFalcon]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8311021@N03/4669812732/

This is akin to saying that 51 CH ST is competitive against healing mobs due to lingering wounds.

And AoE'ing mobs at range is apparently not a good idea according to your post here.

http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post3694668

No, that's akin to saying that paragon AoE capability has a specific, proven value above champion's, as it's already been used for swap-in during AoE fights and proven that as a fact, and that the same reason paragon is dangerous is the same reason its AoE is powerful in ways that champion's is not. Thanks for referring to a link that defends paragon AoE as being powerful. It is a unique asset to be able to hit half the standing room with AoE. Case closed.

Paragon AoE weakness IS a myth.
Its disconnect superiority is NOT.
Its STDPS superiority is NOT.

Champ is owed one more trump card in this game.

[Wylt]

Well first you are off because Clerics have as many dps souls as warriors as does mages. All of them have 4 dps souls. So out of the gate your premise is ganked. The current efforts with rogues confirm it because the expressed intent by the rogue dev is to make Sabo an AE soul that is competitive with Cab.

You can rationalize it however you want but the days of the all in one dps soul are numbered. It would be better to accept it now and move or else you'll just get more frustrated.

Yes, I should drink more coffee before I post in the mornings. However, what I'm hearing from guild rogues about PTS and the changes going on for 1.8 disagrees with you (or at least includes a lot more information that you're ignoring).

In either case.. are we rogues? Are we mages? Are we clerics?

No we are not.

And if you're paying attention to the things I'm actually saying, then you'd know what I'm arguing against is the arguments people use for why ST and AoE DPS can't both be good in one spec... all of which, so far, are flawed arguments.

We need a 2H dps spec that is on par with DW, and vice versa.
If 51 Champ is tied with DW para, people point to champ's AoE and say it isn't fair.
If 51 RB 2h was tied with DW para, it still has better aoe than DW para.
If 51 BM 2h was tied with DW para, it still has better aoe than DW para.
RB has a purpose OUTSIDE of ST or AoE raid dps (self heals from crits, blinks from crits & pvp armor avoidance via elemental damage)
BM has a purpose OUTSIDE of ST or AoE raid dps (buffs that actually stack to boost raid DPS)

Champ is the only tree that is 2H viable that brings NOTHING ELSE to the table except for AoE. It has the least utility, lowest mobility and 0 rdps.

If BM is the best 2h ST DPS, it becomes the only spec people play because of the utility on anything but a high mobility or RDPS fight. Deep champ would be ignored, unless some Aky-like aoe boss encounter crops up and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed to be touched.

If RB is the best 2h ST DPS, it becomes the only spec people play because it has the mobility, the utility, the RDPS, the MDPS, the AoE and the ST... the only thing Parachamp could compete with is the ST dps, and mildly the RDPS. Deep champ would be ignored, unless some Aky-like aoe boss encounter crops up and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed to be touched.

There is no soul that balances better for 2h st dps than Champ and ensures that warriors use most of their souls.

IF 51 Champ was top ST DPS (tied with DW para) and top AoE, most warriors would have:
1 - 2H 51 Champ for AoE & st DPS (as a 2h alternative to DW para)
2 - DW para for mobility & rdps, alternative ST dps
3 - An RB spec for soloing/grinding, bare minimum
4 - A BM spec for utility on raids (many guilds will have 1 BM through ID progression, so long as it remains viable/useful).

That's all 4 DPS souls used by raiding warriors... meanwhile if Champ is lackluster ST DPS, it will mostly be ignored... as trash DPS doesn't matter, and RB/BM would be plenty enough AoE for the few boss fights with adds.

[Galibier]

Mages have 5 - pyro/ele/sc/necro/warlock
Rogues have 6 - Rng/MM/Sab (range) - Sin/NB/BD (melee)

I wasn't referring to rogues and I forgot a mage soul (never played one) my point was tomsay his comment that clerics and mages only have 2-3 souls that are dps.

[Galibier]

Wylt. My only point is to say Trion has clearly decided that a single soul should not be both top/competitive ST and AE dps. This is evidenced by the previous changes to Sabo and the specifically expressed intent of the latest Sabo changes, the past changes to Stormcaller and the original and continued design of the Cabalist. Of course you can argue your point BUT it only seems logical, if they have specifically stated and then firmly implemented this change in 3 of the 4 callings that it is incoming on the 4th as well.

No you are not rogues, clerics and mages, of course not. That said there are basic rules that devs apply to all callings/classes in the games they design. All that making champ an AE soul would do is make it so people <gasp> swap roles as they move through a zone. On AE trash? hop to Champ or a hybrid build with enough champ to do fair ST and AE dps. Assigned to ST dps the named boss on a boss fight, hop to something else.

I really think you are evidencing the source of so many people in this game. They do not see themselves as a warrior. They see themselves as playing a Champion. There are players in every calling who do this. The problem is that the devs have made it pretty clear they look at the callings holistically. They are far more concerned about making the callings competitive and balanced, not the souls. This means each soul is going to have strengths and weaknesses and Champ it appears based on some of the currently minor changes (as opposed to the changes already done to other callings) is going to be Champs AE soul. Just be glad your dev is doing this in a measured way. He could have done what they did to sabo, castrate it and then like 4 updates later finally get around to fixing it.

[Sebb]

Wylt. My only point is to say Trion has clearly decided that a single soul should not be both top/competitive ST and AE dps. This is evidenced by the previous changes to Sabo and the specifically expressed intent of the latest Sabo changes, the past changes to Stormcaller and the original and continued design of the Cabalist. Of course you can argue your point BUT it only seems logical, if they have specifically stated and then firmly implemented this change in 3 of the 4 callings that it is incoming on the 4th as well.

No you are not rogues, clerics and mages, of course not. That said there are basic rules that devs apply to all callings/classes in the games they design. All that making champ an AE soul would do is make it so people <gasp> swap roles as they move through a zone. On AE trash? hop to Champ or a hybrid build with enough champ to do fair ST and AE dps. Assigned to ST dps the named boss on a boss fight, hop to something else.

I really think you are evidencing the source of so many people in this game. They do not see themselves as a warrior. They see themselves as playing a Champion. There are players in every calling who do this. The problem is that the devs have made it pretty clear they look at the callings holistically. They are far more concerned about making the callings competitive and balanced, not the souls. This means each soul is going to have strengths and weaknesses and Champ it appears based on some of the currently minor changes (as opposed to the changes already done to other callings) is going to be Champs AE soul. Just be glad your dev is doing this in a measured way. He could have done what they did to sabo, castrate it and then like 4 updates later finally get around to fixing it.

There's something that you keep (intentionally?) skipping over. Sabo, Cabalist, Stormcaller - do not require the player to change gear in order to use. THAT is the difference.

Instead of questioning if Champion ST should be competitive to other souls, question if Champion AOE should be competitive to other callings.

[Maug]

Yes, I should drink more coffee before I post in the mornings. However, what I'm hearing from guild rogues about PTS and the changes going on for 1.8 disagrees with you (or at least includes a lot more information that you're ignoring).

In either case.. are we rogues? Are we mages? Are we clerics?

No we are not.

And if you're paying attention to the things I'm actually saying, then you'd know what I'm arguing against is the arguments people use for why ST and AoE DPS can't both be good in one spec... all of which, so far, are flawed arguments.

We need a 2H dps spec that is on par with DW, and vice versa.
If 51 Champ is tied with DW para, people point to champ's AoE and say it isn't fair.
If 51 RB 2h was tied with DW para, it still has better aoe than DW para.
If 51 BM 2h was tied with DW para, it still has better aoe than DW para.
RB has a purpose OUTSIDE of ST or AoE raid dps (self heals from crits, blinks from crits & pvp armor avoidance via elemental damage)
BM has a purpose OUTSIDE of ST or AoE raid dps (buffs that actually stack to boost raid DPS)

Champ is the only tree that is 2H viable that brings NOTHING ELSE to the table except for AoE. It has the least utility, lowest mobility and 0 rdps.

If BM is the best 2h ST DPS, it becomes the only spec people play because of the utility on anything but a high mobility or RDPS fight. Deep champ would be ignored, unless some Aky-like aoe boss encounter crops up and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed to be touched.

If RB is the best 2h ST DPS, it becomes the only spec people play because it has the mobility, the utility, the RDPS, the MDPS, the AoE and the ST... the only thing Parachamp could compete with is the ST dps, and mildly the RDPS. Deep champ would be ignored, unless some Aky-like aoe boss encounter crops up and even then it wouldn't be guaranteed to be touched.

There is no soul that balances better for 2h st dps than Champ and ensures that warriors use most of their souls.

IF 51 Champ was top ST DPS (tied with DW para) and top AoE, most warriors would have:
1 - 2H 51 Champ for AoE & st DPS (as a 2h alternative to DW para)
2 - DW para for mobility & rdps, alternative ST dps
3 - An RB spec for soloing/grinding, bare minimum
4 - A BM spec for utility on raids (many guilds will have 1 BM through ID progression, so long as it remains viable/useful).

That's all 4 DPS souls used by raiding warriors... meanwhile if Champ is lackluster ST DPS, it will mostly be ignored... as trash DPS doesn't matter, and RB/BM would be plenty enough AoE for the few boss fights with adds.

If "1 - 2H 51 Champ for AoE & st DPS (as a 2h alternative to DW para)" would go live it will be the only spec people play. Same as 2H RB spec on live.

[Mack0603]

Where did the idea of 2H ST DPS being 500dps behind DW come from? It's not.

Parses are not mine, just taken from within this thread a couple pages back.

41/23/2 RB/Champ/Reav
http://i.imgur.com/4o7Vx.png

44/20/2 Para/Champ/RB
http://i.imgur.com/EmV9M.png

But like I said before, I would love to see a competitive 2H ST DPS spec. Was just clearing up some misinformation that was spread. I do agree, further changes need to be made

[Durango]

And the difference here is that you're comparing classes with 2, 3 max dps souls to a class with HALF of their souls being DPS (because we can only do 2 things). You're comparing apples to oranges. Not to mention different devs to different devs, and they clearly all have their own design. Not to mention their current efforts with rogues disagrees with you (if you really must compare apples to oranges).

Rogues -> 6 DPS souls
Mages -> 5 DPS souls
Clerics -> 4 DPS souls.

Clerics have just as many DPS souls as warriors.

And what current effort with rogues disagrees with me? The fact that they have in their changes for sab nerfed single target and are buffing AoE to bring it up to the level of SC/Cab/Champ? Hmm, that seems to support me perfectly.

pray tell, when WOULDN'T you use RB if it was top/tied ST DPS?

When you had better or equal 1h's and wanted to play para.

Let's not forget that RB AoE, DW or 2H, is already better than Para DW AoE. Scale RB so that it's ST is up to par with DW para and you're in the same boat that you apparently don't want us in, with 1 spec being top ST and AoE.

RB would be/is significantly behind champ for AoE.

Champ should be top 2H ST dps and top AoE, and it's ST DPS should be tied with DW Para.

The only way that becomes viable is they either significantly up the AoE dps of all other classes ST specs or significantly increase the ST dps of Cab, SC, and Sab. If you think that is likely, I have a nice bridge to sell you, either in NY or SF bay...

If champ is top ST and AoE DPS for warriors then there is no point in having BM, RB, or para.

[Maug]

Where did the idea of 2H ST DPS being 500dps behind DW come from? It's not.

Parses are not mine, just taken from within this thread a couple pages back.

41/23/2 RB/Champ/Reav
http://i.imgur.com/4o7Vx.png

44/20/2 Para/Champ/RB
http://i.imgur.com/EmV9M.png

But like I said before, I would love to see a competitive 2H ST DPS spec. Was just clearing up some misinformation that was spread. I do agree, further changes need to be made

I can live with those parses for ST dps.

[Sebb]

If champ is top ST and AoE DPS for warriors then there is no point in having BM, RB, or para.

There's a lot of different ways to differentiate souls other than a dps parse. Champion has no mobility, no range. Riftblade has infinite mobility, decently reliable range.

If RB has top ST dps, top mobility, decent AOE, and a face smash rotation, is there no reason for anything else?