AP Scaling and other DPS changes to the Warrior going up to PTS

[Blackblade]

Paragon AoE inferiority is a myth. It can perform AoE with two novel features that champion cannot. These gains of function more than make up for its smaller ideal AoE capability. Rift raiding is rarely ideal. Paragon beats champ AoE when AoE must be done:

1. At range
2. When enemies can't be clustered tightly.

Why do you think paragon swapping was abused for 2-h aoedps? It's because it reached mobs champion could not.

Focussing on pure max output of the champion, who will rarely be able to make full potential of it, indicates a lower-level of understanding of true balance than is required to make the warriors successful and balanced.

Paragon can AoE in ways a champion cannot. There is your TRUE payment for Paragon's lower ideal AOEDPS.

So not only has paragon already been paid for its lower ideal AoE with unique AoE patterns that champion doesn't have, it still hasn't paid for its superior disconnect capability, and now it hasn't paid for its superior STDPS.

Champion is actually owed two things now.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8311021@N03/4669812732/

This is akin to saying that 51 CH ST is competitive against healing mobs due to lingering wounds.

And AoE'ing mobs at range is apparently not a good idea according to your post here.

http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ml#post3694668

[GunnyWood]

Paragon AoE inferiority is a myth. It can perform AoE with two novel features that champion cannot. These gains of function more than make up for its smaller ideal AoE capability. Rift raiding is rarely ideal. Paragon beats champ AoE when AoE must be done:

1. At range
2. When enemies can't be clustered tightly.

Why do you think paragon swapping was abused for 2-h aoedps? It's because it reached mobs champion could not.

Focussing on pure max output of the champion, who will rarely be able to make full potential of it, indicates a lower-level of understanding of true balance than is required to make the warriors successful and balanced.

Paragon can AoE in ways a champion cannot. There is your TRUE payment for Paragon's lower ideal AOEDPS.

So not only has paragon already been paid for its lower ideal AoE with unique AoE patterns that champion doesn't have, it still hasn't paid for its superior disconnect capability, and now it hasn't paid for its superior STDPS.

Champion is actually owed two things now.

are u realy trying to compare a single aoe ability that can only be used after a builder (with no aoe builder), and only once ever 6 seconds? And trying to say thats better or equal to champ aoe? While I agree that there should be a 2h spec that is equal dps to the dual wield, it should not be a build that also has the best aoe for our class.

[Etilhan]

There's other souls than Champ for 2 handers.

Why not this :
ST DPS : Para = RB
AOE : Champ
Utility : BM

RB has several abilities for disconnected fights too

[GunnyWood]

There's other souls than Champ for 2 handers.

Why not this :
ST DPS : Para = RB
AOE : Champ
Utility : BM

RB has several abilities for disconnected fights too

Thank you, This is realy what is should be looking like. But people seem to be stuck on champ being the only 2h spec. Yes things need to be changed a bit so that it is equal to para builds, but the pts is still up, changes are still happening, and will continue to happen as our dev gets the data he needs to fix things.

[Mr Sandman]

^^^^^So much this^^^^^^
Give DW mobility only as a speciality and nobody will use it, 2h will always be used with that small of a gap in ST and the miles ahead in AoE

I would trade champ's aoe with paragon's worse aoe and take paragon's mobility for champ and play champ happily.

[Kiika]

There's absolutely no reason why 2hander builds should be nearly 500 behind in dps to dw. Lets be real with ourselves here we all know st dps is all people really care for. And if we go into 1.8 with 2hander under performing to dw it will be a slap in the face to those that got 2hander upgrades in hk. Heck getting a 2 hander updrade won't even feel like much of an upgrade if these changes go live. Absolutely unacceptable

[WilkesW]

I would trade champ's aoe with paragon's worse aoe and take paragon's mobility for champ and play champ happily.

I would play both happily if this was the case aswell, but lets face it, its not going to happen.

Anyways im done argumenting about what should better at what, in the end its the devs deciding what they want for us and hopefully they will find a usage area for both DW and 2h, both at equal value raidwise.

[WilkesW]

Edit: I would play both happily if this was the case aswell (champ coming ahead in ST), but lets face it, its not going to happen.

[Undrsiege]

Paragon disconnect and ranged AOE superiority makes up for your made up 150-250 dps, which is actually more than twice that right now.

Or are we not counting strengths of the paragon towards its value pool any more while holding champion's against it. I guess we're not apparently. That's totatly nonhypocritical.

If you're going to pay paragon for champion's AoE abilities, you'd best pay champion for paragon's disconnect superiority. You're showing obvious DW favoritism otherwise.

Not surprising that people would hypocritically try to boost their preferred spec. Just disappointing that people can be so inconsistent and obvious about it.

The champ crystal no longer applies to paragon abilities in case you missed that...

[Etilhan]

Thank you, This is realy what is should be looking like. But people seem to be stuck on champ being the only 2h spec. Yes things need to be changed a bit so that it is equal to para builds, but the pts is still up, changes are still happening, and will continue to happen as our dev gets the data he needs to fix things.

The fact is both RB and Para have tools for disconnected fights, both have some AOE, both have PVP tools.
I think these two souls have a lot in common!
Why not best ST DPS too?

[Durango]

Arguing that 2H can't have ST and AoE both be best in the same build is ridiculous. Why not?

Because Trion has systematically decided that it won't be. SC best ST/AOE -> ST severely nerfed. Cab designed with some of the worst ST in the game, but excellent AoE, on purpose, they specifically nerfed abilities that would allow it to have competitive ST. Sab, competitive ST and AoE -> nerfed to useless and left to languish until this patch where they are specifically only buffing AoE.

Trion has decided that it isn't a good idea to have both competitive AoE and competitive ST in the same spec. Champ looks to be the latest change in this direction. Just be happy that at the moment that its ST is more competitive than SC, Cab, and Sab.

So in effect, you are tilting at windmills arguing against people who are saying that Champ isn't going to be competitive ST as long as it is competitive AoE. You are better off pushing for changes to RB to increase its 2H ST DPS. Champ = AoE.

[bramankp]

The fact is both RB and Para have tools for disconnected fights

I just keep hoping the para ranged abilities (aside from PotH) get rid of the cooldown so they can have 100% uptime during disconnected fights.

[Wylt]

Give DW mobility only as a speciality and nobody will use it

Wrong. Opinions aren't facts.

[Maug]

I've learnt three things while reading through this thread:
We hate dual weld.
We hate pets.
Champion is an AOE soul.

So that leaves us Riftblade! Let's buff its ST to Para level while also nerfing its AOE to Para level. Bada bing, bada boom!

I love DW and Pets so your only talking about a few who hate them and yes the Champ seems to be the AOE soul.

[Wylt]

Because Trion has systematically decided that it won't be. SC best ST/AOE -> ST severely nerfed. Cab designed with some of the worst ST in the game, but excellent AoE, on purpose, they specifically nerfed abilities that would allow it to have competitive ST. Sab, competitive ST and AoE -> nerfed to useless and left to languish until this patch where they are specifically only buffing AoE.

Trion has decided that it isn't a good idea to have both competitive AoE and competitive ST in the same spec. Champ looks to be the latest change in this direction. Just be happy that at the moment that its ST is more competitive than SC, Cab, and Sab.

So in effect, you are tilting at windmills arguing against people who are saying that Champ isn't going to be competitive ST as long as it is competitive AoE. You are better off pushing for changes to RB to increase its 2H ST DPS. Champ = AoE.

And the difference here is that you're comparing classes with 2, 3 max dps souls to a class with HALF of their souls being DPS (because we can only do 2 things). You're comparing apples to oranges. Not to mention different devs to different devs, and they clearly all have their own design. Not to mention their current efforts with rogues disagrees with you (if you really must compare apples to oranges).

The other thing you're missing here is that RB (elemental damage) will never scale the same as Champ (physical damage). RB's additional mobility & rdps abilities over Champ make it LESS likely to be superior ST DPS at the end of all of this, as it has more utility. RB is also a simpler rotation, AND is our grinding spec due to the self heals. If they make 2H RB our top ST DPS (or tied for top with DW para), it will become the spec most of us use full time and all of their efforts toward DW will be relatively wasted... you'd end up using RB 2h on raids, in 5 mans, soloing... pray tell, when WOULDN'T you use RB if it was top/tied ST DPS? Let's not forget that RB AoE, DW or 2H, is already better than Para DW AoE. Scale RB so that it's ST is up to par with DW para and you're in the same boat that you apparently don't want us in, with 1 spec being top ST and AoE.

Simply put... BM is our almost-support spec. RB is our soloing/grinding spec, and hopefully SOMEWHAT viable on raids for when we want to button mash (and for new raiders). Champ should be top 2H ST dps and top AoE, and it's ST DPS should be tied with DW Para. DW Para should be tied for top ST dps and have superior mobility & rdps (as it currently does). This gives EVERY SOUL a purpose.

The limitation to Champ, if it were tied for top ST dps and still best at AoE, is that it is less mobile (one charge, no sprint) and has 0 self rdps... both things that DW para excels at. This makes them VERY complimentary specs and most competitive/hardcore minded raiders would have both specs in their pockets and use both judiciously... which would mean a large portion of the raiding warrior community would be rocking both 2H and DW specs on raids.