Feedback for PVP Physical DPS issues and Power Starvation concerns

[Atrius]

Hello everyone, we are well aware of both of these concerns and would like to consolidate all constructive discussion and ideas on the topic into one place. This will be the thread that devs are looking at for your thoughts and concerns so if you have something to bring up, be sure to post here. Please keep the discussions on topic and constructive, anything that does not pertain to these issues or is not constructive will be removed.

Thank you all for your continued feedback.

[Rottweiler-STi]

Revert the last physical damage nerf, problem solved, sorry, no I'm not for hire.

[tordana]

In my mind reverting all the PvP-specific changes made in a 1.4 hotfix would go a long way to fixing the state of Warrior DPS. PvE DPS is completely fine in terms of physical vs. magical.

For PvE, warriors need help with energy. Rogues essentially don't even have an energy bar since the 1.5 buff to their regeneration -- that makes warriors feel left in the dust and makes combat extremely clunky. I can tell Trion wants combat to feel fluid, especially with the proposed 1.6 Pyro changes giving some mages a 1 second GCD. The DPS Warrior energy issues are leaving us with essentially 2 second GCDs in many cases, making it much less enjoyable and fluid to play.

I see three possible options regarding energy:

1. Leave it as is now and let Warriors have the slowest GCD of any class in game with constant energy starvation issues, even with bard buffs and tablets.
2. Increase Warrior passive regeneration, putting us back in line with Rogues that got the regen buff.
3. Reduce cost of certain skills. We should be able to use rotations of builder - builder - builder - finisher without ever running out of energy, but perhaps we should have to consider our usage of reactives carefully as we could run out of energy if using too many.

[batou079]

give slight increase to Warrior energy regen, much like rogues got.
perhaps rework a couple more skills for dps to better manage their energy at least.

[Braanu]

Re-posting this here from the other thread:

I never thought of our Energy issues this way, but the OP is right if this is the train of thought he's using...

Why have an Energy bar at all? It makes no sense really. The combination of energy conservation skills slotted in your tree, fervour or chloro energy, and the use of energy restoring tablets means that 99% of our raiding Warriors are gaining as much or more power than they're using.

The fact that most DPS Warriors are not sitting there with a nearly empty Energy bar waiting to use a skill once enough Energy is restored, means to me that we should get rid of the Energy bar for non-mana users completely.

The stop-gap for how much DPS you can dish out per your soul spec and skill rotation should be the GCD or CD of the skills your using and nothing else for DPS.

No matter what Trion does to the Warrior class, we're going to find a way to get our Energy bar to keep up with the skills we're using. That is, unless they completely nerf our class in the Energy regen department, which I don't doubt they will at some point.

So why not just get rid of Energy bars and all those considerations for Rogues and Warriors, and simplify the mechanics behind the game? Even if you leave things how they are, Warriors and Rogues are nearly always going to have the Energy regen to keep up with how they are playing. So why not make life easier as a Trion developer, take Energy out of the picture for those two classes, and make your job easier not having to program everything around it?

Just make sure DPS is in check based on GCDs and CDs of our skills.

[Ryuji]

In addition to the prior comments (revert hotfix 1.4.5 entirely) - make Grim Satisfaction in Champion give more power back for 3 points. Currently most warriors crit enough to keep power flowing constantly with 2 points, and there is still power starvation even with that up consistently. Have it return more energy per second with the third point, rather than it's current extended time.

[Soulsurfing]

Physical Damage

Agreed revert 1.4.5 Warrior PVP nerfs, Atrius.

It seems like at the time Trion felt we were still doing too much damage so an across the boards general 5-15% nerf was made. Later on Trion specifically targeted OGCD's (which were the cause of our burst), bloodthirst, and nerfed them. These were the actual culprits. Both changes were not necessary. Please repeal 1.4.5 physical damage nerfs. Specifically I am speaking about these:

http://forums.riftgame.com/official-...2-8-11-eu.html

SOULS
* PvP: Reduced the bonus given by certain enhancing buffs during PvP only.
- Teaching of the Five Rings, Weapon Specialization, and Rift Fury are reduced by 10%.
- Slayer's Bearing is reduced by 5%.
- Force of Will is reduced by 5% in PvP for each Soul Point spent in it.
- Strike Like Iron is reduced by 5% when used with 1 or 2 Attack Points, and 10% when using 3 Attack Points.
- Bend Like the Reed: Bonus is reduced by 5% per Attack Point used.
* PvP: Certain damaging abilities have had their damage reduced when using them in PvP.
- Paired Strike, Titan's Strike, Punishing Blow, and Frenzied Strike have been reduced by 10%.
- Reaping Harvest and Path of the Raptor have been reduced by 15%.

After you make this change, please STOP. And let warriors re-evaluate to see where they stand with physical damage builds. The point is to balance warriors properly, not over-inflate them to godlike status (as rogues currently enjoy), which will inevitably get them a well deserved nerf.

Regarding Power

Riftblade Power generation is fine.

Champion power generation "clips" each other once you begin getting at high levels of crit. Either making these "stack" or making them more instant would be preferable.

Paragon power generation "Serenity" has poor design; by design a DPS soul would not tank, therefore it would never get the chance for Serenity to activate. A new activation needs to be decided for Paragon and Serenity.

Beastmaster has no power generation abilities whatsoever.

The only tank soul which has power generation is Warlord and it is fairly deep in Warlord. As a tank who is starved constantly it would be nice to have some generation ability.

Lastly it would be nice to have higher base regeneration rate. Most warrior DPS builds are almost reliant on tablets to operate.

[Soulsurfing]

I was trying to add this to the top of the power generation area but the edit timer exired:


Power generation can be handled various ways. Through soul abilities, increasing base power generation, or reducing costs. Many warrior builds are reliant on tablets. Living Energy is not enough in most raids to keep us from starving unless we begin omitting abilities (ie, give up dps).

By the way... thank you for collecting feedback. It shows you're concerned.

[Rizaz]

The biggest concern I have is Grim Satisfaction clipping itsself.

Currently 2/3 is as good as 3/3 because in a raid you crit so much, with 2/3, grim satisfaction will never drop. But it is still not providing enough power for warriors to DPS.

Grim Satisfaction should either stack or provide more power at a quicker rate.

[harrydesmart]

To note, the reason why we hit so hard during the 1.4 patch is due to a bug regarding combat precision that bypasses 100% of the target armor, that has been fixed.

That was they key reason why paragons tore through everything.

[Dartan]

Atrius,

Right now, even as a R8 warrior, if I run into a fight I will be focused and killed on the spot

1. Very few cooldowns to protect ourselves that sort of work.
Touch of Life is subject to 1/2 heal due to Rogue heal debuff
Fusion of Flesh only works with spells and by the time you use it you can potentially die still.
Anything deeper in VK/Pal/Reaver you don't have
Paragon's Bend like Reed parry cooldown only works against melee, assuming you are not stunned and they are not behind you. Most people do not go deep paragon for PvP due to the need to be deep RB.
2. Subdue in 1.4 conditionally worked. It worked on most taunts and ae taunts, just missing some. It is completely broken in 1.5 and does not trigger at all.
3. Actual physical dps is low damage. As an R8 51 Champ, I can't do anything to a R4 Cleric due to Valor mitigation and I hit like a wet noodle. I am assuming this is due to the 1.4 hotfix that nerfed a bunch of our physical abilities. Please revert these changes as there were multiple things tied to "physical dps being too good" and ALL of them were nerfed at the same time. Only one change needed to be made, which was the Way of the Wind change.
4. Power starvation occurs if you have off global cooldown skills or just using high power skills (pretty much all AE skills). This is key because if you changed RB Fiery Burst to higher into RB tree (most people triple spec into RB 2 points just to use fiery burst), you lower our dps, but fix one of the main causes of power starvation. This leads to a whole different discussion about all finishers not being worth using and fiery burst being the best because it is off GCD. If you look at all single target finishers, they are not much of an improvement on damage.

Also, please consider starting an itemization thread too. There is alot of itemization problems in this game outside of the warrior leather problem. We are forced to wear 10 man gear or items from early bosses because items are not properly statted. For example, First boss in X raid drops a 20 str 20 dex 20 end 20 hit 20 ap ring, but last boss in X raid drops a 20 str 20 dex 20 end 20 ap ring WITHOUT any hit, thus making it worthless. That example is fairly common and is probably an oversight in a missing stat.

[Navvy]

make str>dex and reduce the power usage slightly on single target spam attacks, problem solved

[Gomba]

Intro

I've been toying with the idea of what would fix this build. From that and discussion with the Warrior Community we have come up with three points that need addressed.

1) Champion Finishers are a DPS Loss.
2) Champions need a Talent or Skill at 38 encourage deeper Champions
3) Champions have 2 abilities that desperately need Retooled.

1)

Currently the biggest fault for Champ is that the finishers are a DPS loss. Using Punishing Blow actually lowers your dps in comparison to using Rising Waterfall in 28 champ / 38 para. To correct this issue Deadly strikes needs to affect all Physical attacks while wielding 2h's. This will add a much needed scaling to the finishers for this tree. It is insane that using Finishers in this tree ends up being a dps loss. This would maintain the 18+% bonus to builders and extend it towards Physical Finishing abilities. This will encourage warriors to use abilities other then Fiery Burst.

2)

Next item would be to add a carrot on the stick between 30 and 51. These abilities are completely lackluster and are not attractive to any champ. i would suggest implementing a new ability at 38pts. I would suggest an ability that allows us to use two bearings.

Double Standard
Instant
10 Energy
While in this martial trance is active the warrior gains the ability of maintaining two Bearings. Lasts 1 hour.

This would give a whole new meaning to the deeper aspects of the tree. With that being said this should give a Much needed push into the champion tree. Some of the numbers could be tweaked a little as i don't think this will bring it in line with the hybrid builds. Deadly strikes probably needs bumped up slightly or Destroyers bearing needs buffed due to it barely being on par with Strike like Iron which is a 38 pt ability.

Both of these changes are drastically needed to increase the viability of the Champion tree and give us some alternate options for builds. 38 champion 28 BM ? or 38 champ 28 Para... Either way it would be steps in the right direction to increase deeper champion.

3)

There are two abilities that desperately need addressed.

Debilitating Strike.

This ability has no real benefit and cannot be justified in a rotation. That being said it needs to be on the same damage as power strike. This should be a common sense ability that we would want to keep in our rotations. I would recommend it increase the damage of our finishers by 5 % like how enhanced burst works for RB. In addition it should do the same damage as Power strike. No more no less. We should not loose dps over this ability. Give this ability a 15 second duration and a 12 second CD.

Disruptive Strike.

This ability costs entirely way too much. This ability does not do nearly enough either. this ability hits about 20 % harder then power strike. This ability should have a residual effect. It was suggested that this ability should amplify the next attack made by 10 or 15 %. that or make this Modify the next Finishing attack by 10 % made with in 15 seconds. Either way this ability needs a little bit of direction.


Summary

I hope these suggestions do not fall upon deaf ears as some of them are extremely simple. I do think these abilities should be implemented slowly and not all at the same time. The biggest change of them all would be Deadly Strikes. This changes the core idea of using finishers from champion. After that the 38 pt ability Double standard increases the versatility of the tree to encourage deeper hybrid specs. This would bring the tree in line with Paragon with Strike Like Iron being 38 pts. The Retooling of the Abilities is a must. It's a shame that these two abilities cannot find their way into rotations due to being in-efficient or a DPS loss.

[Repster]

A slight power regen increase is needed. Not much. Maybe 2-3 more power per second. That and some other changes would go a long long way.

Increase the amount of energy restored by grim satisfaction to 15 over 5 seconds at 3/3. This would allow it to tick at 3 a second instead of 2 and would make it far more valuable for higher crit levels. since at that point, you critting pretty much every 3 seconds, making 2/3 a better choice then wasting 3/3 with clipping.

Make the Paragon Serenity proc on something else then parry. Like say, % chance on using an attack that uses 2 weapons or something. The power Regen needs to be something that the soul is likely to do.

Beast master needs something as well, not sure what. Probably something to do with it's pet.

Reaver is fine... once you hit 38 in it. Ethereal bond+binding of death works rather well.

Warlord... warlord's problem is that it's usually not worth going that far into it to get the power regen talent. even if it is rather good... and would almost fit better with the paladin really. Power regen on block? Sounds like something for the tree that has 25% block in it's first 6 points. Heck, give Rapid recovery to the paladin, and give the warlord something that gives everybody some power energy and mana. Like a lesser version of Verse of Joy. Maybe a call that restores 10 power, 10 energy and 100 mana and reduces the cost of the next ability by 10% or something.

Rifblade is fine. Straight up 10 power on a crit and next attack has lowered cost of 50%. Good stuff.

Void Knight has efficient conversion. It's not much, but the abilities you want more power for are those that consume pacts. It just needs to works on every pact consuming ability. That combined with the slight increase in base regen should do the trick.

And reverse those damned across the board damage decreases from 1.4

Put those in for testing, and it would solve a lot of problems.

[Rizaz]

Intro

I've been toying with the idea of what would fix this build. From that and discussion with the Warrior Community we have come up with three points that need addressed.

1) Champion Finishers are a DPS Loss.
2) Champions need a Talent or Skill at 38 encourage deeper Champions
3) Champions have 2 abilities that desperately need Retooled.

1)

Currently the biggest fault for Champ is that the finishers are a DPS loss. Using Punishing Blow actually lowers your dps in comparison to using Rising Waterfall in 28 champ / 38 para. To correct this issue Deadly strikes needs to affect all Physical attacks while wielding 2h's. This will add a much needed scaling to the finishers for this tree. It is insane that using Finishers in this tree ends up being a dps loss. This would maintain the 18+% bonus to builders and extend it towards Physical Finishing abilities. This will encourage warriors to use abilities other then Fiery Burst.

2)

Next item would be to add a carrot on the stick between 30 and 51. These abilities are completely lackluster and are not attractive to any champ. i would suggest implementing a new ability at 38pts. I would suggest an ability that allows us to use two bearings.

Double Standard
Instant
10 Energy
While in this martial trance is active the warrior gains the ability of maintaining two Bearings. Lasts 1 hour.

This would give a whole new meaning to the deeper aspects of the tree. With that being said this should give a Much needed push into the champion tree. Some of the numbers could be tweaked a little as i don't think this will bring it in line with the hybrid builds. Deadly strikes probably needs bumped up slightly or Destroyers bearing needs buffed due to it barely being on par with Strike like Iron which is a 38 pt ability.

Both of these changes are drastically needed to increase the viability of the Champion tree and give us some alternate options for builds. 38 champion 28 BM ? or 38 champ 28 Para... Either way it would be steps in the right direction to increase deeper champion.

3)

There are two abilities that desperately need addressed.

Debilitating Strike.

This ability has no real benefit and cannot be justified in a rotation. That being said it needs to be on the same damage as power strike. This should be a common sense ability that we would want to keep in our rotations. I would recommend it increase the damage of our finishers by 5 % like how enhanced burst works for RB. In addition it should do the same damage as Power strike. No more no less. We should not loose dps over this ability. Give this ability a 15 second duration and a 12 second CD.

Disruptive Strike.

This ability costs entirely way too much. This ability does not do nearly enough either. this ability hits about 20 % harder then power strike. This ability should have a residual effect. It was suggested that this ability should amplify the next attack made by 10 or 15 %. that or make this Modify the next Finishing attack by 10 % made with in 15 seconds. Either way this ability needs a little bit of direction.


Summary

I hope these suggestions do not fall upon deaf ears as some of them are extremely simple. I do think these abilities should be implemented slowly and not all at the same time. The biggest change of them all would be Deadly Strikes. This changes the core idea of using finishers from champion. After that the 38 pt ability Double standard increases the versatility of the tree to encourage deeper hybrid specs. This would bring the tree in line with Paragon with Strike Like Iron being 38 pts. The Retooling of the Abilities is a must. It's a shame that these two abilities cannot find their way into rotations due to being in-efficient or a DPS loss.

Gomba makes a really good points with this post.