Feedback for ongoing Tank mitigation and balance for 1.6

[Adrean]

Id like to take this time to voice my opinion on the warior VK threat generation. Ive been tanking on my warrior for about 3 months now. Ive used a 51 point VK build since 1.5. 8 paladin for touch of life and 6 WL for Battlefield awareness aggro generation. The mitigation from the 51 point spec. 20/10% mitigation was a bonus and holding aggro from Sab specd or MM specd rogues was NEVER and issue and I never had the rogue put up incriminate. He could blast full dps from the begining of the fight throughout and I never lost threat. I had no threat "Threashhold" with them. Ive been in ROS and GSB with dps who held around 1500 to 1800 single target and never lost threat to them. NEVER. Untill this new 1.6. My spec is no longer valid at all. Im having to blow every CD I have just to gain threat back from them. And that's with using the Call to battle skill when ever its off CD. This shouldn't happen. I havn't read the tanking thread so i don't know who else is having issues with threat or if they love the new changes. However, threat isn't the only issue. My overall mitigation is down about 7% from what it was. This is taken from data based on 17 T2's run over the course of two days. Its been a constant 7% more incomming dps overall in every dungeon from what it was. I used 3 different meters to judge this. Riftcount, RJP and ACT. My overall block is decreased and i think that maybe where the difference is comming from. I was under the impression that you guys where making the 51 point specs more viable in raids. That may have been a misconception on my part.

I do however LOVE what you guys did for my rogue tank. The threat generation is up and the overal mitigation is awesome. I have noticed when Off Tanking GSB that I cannot hold the threat on my warrior against the rogue tank we run with. He doesnt even use any force taunts and he rips aggro away from my warrior. This just makes me a little concerned about the direction you're heading with the warrior. We're not multi talented like the rogues/clerics. We cannot support we dont heal. The only thing warriors CAN do is tank and dps...... Shouldn't warriors be the specialists in this? I know you're trying to balance things out but really you've made me a very unhappy warrior but you've made my rogue VERY happy.

[Lowkie]

Id like to take this time to voice my opinion on the warior VK threat generation. Ive been tanking on my warrior for about 3 months now. Ive used a 51 point VK build since 1.5. 8 paladin for touch of life and 6 WL for Battlefield awareness aggro generation. The mitigation from the 51 point spec. 20/10% mitigation was a bonus and holding aggro from Sab specd or MM specd rogues was NEVER and issue and I never had the rogue put up incriminate. He could blast full dps from the begining of the fight throughout and I never lost threat. I had no threat "Threashhold" with them. Ive been in ROS and GSB with dps who held around 1500 to 1800 single target and never lost threat to them. NEVER. Untill this new 1.6. My spec is no longer valid at all. Im having to blow every CD I have just to gain threat back from them. And that's with using the Call to battle skill when ever its off CD. This shouldn't happen. I havn't read the tanking thread so i don't know who else is having issues with threat or if they love the new changes. However, threat isn't the only issue. My overall mitigation is down about 7% from what it was. This is taken from data based on 17 T2's run over the course of two days. Its been a constant 7% more incomming dps overall in every dungeon from what it was. I used 3 different meters to judge this. Riftcount, RJP and ACT. My overall block is decreased and i think that maybe where the difference is comming from. I was under the impression that you guys where making the 51 point specs more viable in raids. That may have been a misconception on my part.

I do however LOVE what you guys did for my rogue tank. The threat generation is up and the overal mitigation is awesome. I have noticed when Off Tanking GSB that I cannot hold the threat on my warrior against the rogue tank we run with. He doesnt even use any force taunts and he rips aggro away from my warrior. This just makes me a little concerned about the direction you're heading with the warrior. We're not multi talented like the rogues/clerics. We cannot support we dont heal. The only thing warriors CAN do is tank and dps...... Shouldn't warriors be the specialists in this? I know you're trying to balance things out but really you've made me a very unhappy warrior but you've made my rogue VERY happy.

You "may" want to consider looking over the options and try some of the new builds. I can say since 1.6 that I feel like a beast now. 38 RV/28VK and 38 RV/16WL/12 Paly is even more incredible. In DH now we just need 1 tank at the last boss from the pull rather than 2 to make sure we grab the adds. That to me was a big change and GSB is even better with the trash pulls we would have our DPS pull off us tanks. I'd really recommend you give the new builds a try. You might be pleasantly surprised.

[Zughalala]

Id like to take this time to voice my opinion on the warior VK threat generation. Ive been tanking on my warrior for about 3 months now. Ive used a 51 point VK build since 1.5. 8 paladin for touch of life and 6 WL for Battlefield awareness aggro generation. The mitigation from the 51 point spec. 20/10% mitigation was a bonus and holding aggro from Sab specd or MM specd rogues was NEVER and issue and I never had the rogue put up incriminate. He could blast full dps from the begining of the fight throughout and I never lost threat. I had no threat "Threashhold" with them. Ive been in ROS and GSB with dps who held around 1500 to 1800 single target and never lost threat to them. NEVER. Untill this new 1.6. My spec is no longer valid at all. Im having to blow every CD I have just to gain threat back from them. And that's with using the Call to battle skill when ever its off CD. This shouldn't happen. I havn't read the tanking thread so i don't know who else is having issues with threat or if they love the new changes. However, threat isn't the only issue. My overall mitigation is down about 7% from what it was. This is taken from data based on 17 T2's run over the course of two days. Its been a constant 7% more incomming dps overall in every dungeon from what it was. I used 3 different meters to judge this. Riftcount, RJP and ACT. My overall block is decreased and i think that maybe where the difference is comming from. I was under the impression that you guys where making the 51 point specs more viable in raids. That may have been a misconception on my part.

I do however LOVE what you guys did for my rogue tank. The threat generation is up and the overal mitigation is awesome. I have noticed when Off Tanking GSB that I cannot hold the threat on my warrior against the rogue tank we run with. He doesnt even use any force taunts and he rips aggro away from my warrior. This just makes me a little concerned about the direction you're heading with the warrior. We're not multi talented like the rogues/clerics. We cannot support we dont heal. The only thing warriors CAN do is tank and dps...... Shouldn't warriors be the specialists in this? I know you're trying to balance things out but really you've made me a very unhappy warrior but you've made my rogue VERY happy.

you should read this threads beginning pages....or any page really

[Adrean]

You "may" want to consider looking over the options and try some of the new builds. I can say since 1.6 that I feel like a beast now. 38 RV/28VK and 38 RV/16WL/12 Paly is even more incredible. In DH now we just need 1 tank at the last boss from the pull rather than 2 to make sure we grab the adds. That to me was a big change and GSB is even better with the trash pulls we would have our DPS pull off us tanks. I'd really recommend you give the new builds a try. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Again i thought the whole point of it was to make the 51 point builds more viable.

[Nefaruis]

Again i thought the whole point of it was to make the 51 point builds more viable.

The point was to make more options viable...point distribution be damned.

[Adrean]

The point was to make more options viable...point distribution be damned.

If that where the case then a single talent for full mitigation (that isnt stackable) would be what they did.... They did not do that.

I am confused about the block>dodge/parry conversations. They seem to add dodge and parry... Why? If i have 20% chance to dodge and 10% chance to parry that does not equate to 30%. That equates to 20/10%. Because if each attack is calculated individualy with each stats being applied individualy then one cannot add them together.

If i have a 10% chance per attack to dodge something then one cannot say that is 1 in 10 chance of avoiding. If you imagine a sliding scale with 10% of the bar being red and 90% of the bar being blue and when the slider hits red i dodge, then that may equate to 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 or 1 in 20 dodged if the slider moves at a constant rate and stops at a random time period. If random numbers are used it reduces the chance of that actually happening even further. The laws of probability should be applied in a more ralistic sense instead of using hard numbers. 10% in game has always seemed more like 7% to me.

If I'm wrong here please tell me why. I could see adding them if the checks where addative. I thought however, they where individual. Attacks being checked for dodge if that fails then checked for parry if that fails checked for block and then mitigation. If I am wrong please tell me. (And please include why.)

[Cordae]

Has the lack of a damage reduction block cap been confirmed? I know one person pointed it out, but I'm hesitant to trust that before having some double check the claim.

[Carinae]

If I'm wrong here please tell me why. I could see adding them if the checks where addative. I thought however, they where individual. Attacks being checked for dodge if that fails then checked for parry if that fails checked for block and then mitigation. If I am wrong please tell me. (And please include why.)

Prior testing has indicated that the damage is a dual roll system. The first roll is miss/dodge/parry and the second roll is for block/deflect. This means that miss, dodge and parry are additive.

Testing this is relatively simple. Grab a pack of small mobs, let them beat on you for say 1000 hits. Compare your dodge/parry rates to the expected dodge/parry rate. Block will show a lower percentage than indicated since it is rolled after dodge/parry.

[Nefaruis]

If that where the case then a single talent for full mitigation (that isnt stackable) would be what they did.... They did not do that.

I am confused about the block>dodge/parry conversations. They seem to add dodge and parry... Why? If i have 20% chance to dodge and 10% chance to parry that does not equate to 30%. That equates to 20/10%. Because if each attack is calculated individualy with each stats being applied individualy then one cannot add them together.

If i have a 10% chance per attack to dodge something then one cannot say that is 1 in 10 chance of avoiding. If you imagine a sliding scale with 10% of the bar being red and 90% of the bar being blue and when the slider hits red i dodge, then that may equate to 1 in 10 or 1 in 5 or 1 in 20 dodged if the slider moves at a constant rate and stops at a random time period. If random numbers are used it reduces the chance of that actually happening even further. The laws of probability should be applied in a more ralistic sense instead of using hard numbers. 10% in game has always seemed more like 7% to me.

If I'm wrong here please tell me why. I could see adding them if the checks where addative. I thought however, they where individual. Attacks being checked for dodge if that fails then checked for parry if that fails checked for block and then mitigation. If I am wrong please tell me. (And please include why.)

I don't see why there would have to be 1 talent that gave you all of your mitigation with my statement. I was trying to say that regardless of how your 66 points are spent they wanted the 4 tank trees to be close. I believe they have accomplished this, they are CLOSE. The 51 builds are similar to each other (pally being a little under performing but still CLOSE) but the key here is that there are tons of combinations now that will all work just as well as the next barring a few % difference. Unless you are progression tanking in HK the differences will be invisible to you, the damage just isnt high enough to see it.


As for the combat rolls Carinae explained it well.

[Teldaril]

If that where the case then a single talent for full mitigation (that isnt stackable) would be what they did.... They did not do that.

They shifted a lot of mitigation out of the trees into the gifts. As long as you spent all your points in tank souls (and at least 5 for the gift), than you will have +50% health, + 20% melee mitigation and +25% magic mitigation in your build.

[Adrean]

I take evrything back i said. With a little tweak to the spec my Mitigation went up 11% and my threat generation is UBER. Thank you trion.

[ebbrey]

Eaux - I've been testing out different builds in your "Tank Spec Comparisons", and ive noticed that all your 38 reaver builds have Planar Attunement and not Crest Mastery.

Is this because of the low threat generation of reaver? or 3 points for 3% magic dmg reduction just not worth it?

[Eaux]

I've always gone with all mitigation talents possible for the spreadsheet at the cost of utility, but when they dropped hardened will/crest mastery to 2% for 3 talent points, I didn't think it was worth it, considering the 38RV specs have very high magic/non-physical damage mitigation to begin with. In-game, though, it seems they still give 3% and not 2% as the patch notes suggest, and I have since then reverted back to including crest mastery/hardened will, even though 3% magic damage reduction for 3 talents isn't huge. All able specs should include crest mastery now.

[Zughalala]

Eaux, how do you feel about using all of the new tank essences, giving us 155 endurance, 95 block (im using a new raid rift essence, 30 endur, 30 block), 62 dodge, 71 parry (dode/parry have str/dex included in values). Before this i had like 115 endur, and 160block, but i feel like the new combo is just as good, if not better, bc the endur, and passive mitigation. any thoughts?

[nocks]

Eaux, how do you feel about using all of the new tank essences, giving us 155 endurance, 95 block (im using a new raid rift essence, 30 endur, 30 block), 62 dodge, 71 parry (dode/parry have str/dex included in values). Before this i had like 115 endur, and 160block, but i feel like the new combo is just as good, if not better, bc the endur, and passive mitigation. any thoughts?

The problem is we were all (or already are) hitting the block soft/hard cap, so they are trying to scale back the amount of block they give us in exchange for other stats.